1
00:00:04,249 --> 00:00:02,450
even mcgilchrist is a psychiatrist a

2
00:00:05,990 --> 00:00:04,259
writer and a former Oxford literary

3
00:00:07,670 --> 00:00:06,000
scholar who came to prominence with his

4
00:00:09,830 --> 00:00:07,680
work the master and his Emissary

5
00:00:11,690 --> 00:00:09,840
subtitled The Divided brain and the

6
00:00:13,370 --> 00:00:11,700
making of the Western World we've spoken

7
00:00:14,990 --> 00:00:13,380
last year regarding the very topic and

8
00:00:17,269 --> 00:00:15,000
the link is in the description his new

9
00:00:19,370 --> 00:00:17,279
book the matter with things our brains

10
00:00:21,349 --> 00:00:19,380
our delusions and the unmaking of the

11
00:00:23,689 --> 00:00:21,359
world and the links to both books are in

12
00:00:25,189 --> 00:00:23,699
the description John verviki is a

13
00:00:27,170 --> 00:00:25,199
professor of cognitive science at the

14
00:00:29,150 --> 00:00:27,180
University of Toronto my former home

15
00:00:30,890 --> 00:00:29,160
who's one of the few Scholars taking an

16
00:00:33,110 --> 00:00:30,900
extensive and meticulous cognitive

17
00:00:35,209 --> 00:00:33,120
scientific approach to wisdom Buddhism

18
00:00:37,430 --> 00:00:35,219
and Consciousness John and I have also

19
00:00:39,290 --> 00:00:37,440
spoken several times on this podcast and

20
00:00:40,549 --> 00:00:39,300
you can see the thumbnails here and the

21
00:00:42,350 --> 00:00:40,559
links to each will be in the description

22
00:00:44,930 --> 00:00:42,360
as well it's that latter topic

23
00:00:47,090 --> 00:00:44,940
Consciousness that in more ways than one

24
00:00:48,709 --> 00:00:47,100
binds us here today as usual click on

25
00:00:51,170 --> 00:00:48,719
the timestamp in the description to skip

26
00:00:52,970 --> 00:00:51,180
this intro my name is Kurt J mungle I'm

27
00:00:54,889 --> 00:00:52,980
a torontonian filmmaker with a

28
00:00:56,389 --> 00:00:54,899
background in mathematical physics and

29
00:00:58,729 --> 00:00:56,399
this channel is dedicated to the

30
00:01:01,430 --> 00:00:58,739
explication of the variegated terrain of

31
00:01:03,529 --> 00:01:01,440
theories of everything that is primarily

32
00:01:05,929 --> 00:01:03,539
from a theoretical physics perspective

33
00:01:07,550 --> 00:01:05,939
so for example Grand unification and

34
00:01:09,289 --> 00:01:07,560
quantum gravity but as well as

35
00:01:11,510 --> 00:01:09,299
understanding the role Consciousness has

36
00:01:13,130 --> 00:01:11,520
to play to the fundamental laws provided

37
00:01:15,170 --> 00:01:13,140
these laws exist at all in a form

38
00:01:16,910 --> 00:01:15,180
knowable to us two quick announcements

39
00:01:18,830 --> 00:01:16,920
firstly there's a physics and

40
00:01:20,149 --> 00:01:18,840
Consciousness contest on this channel

41
00:01:21,590 --> 00:01:20,159
the link to which will be in the

42
00:01:23,390 --> 00:01:21,600
description as well as the thumbnail is

43
00:01:25,370 --> 00:01:23,400
over here essentially it's the physics

44
00:01:27,590 --> 00:01:25,380
version of the three blue one brown math

45
00:01:29,210 --> 00:01:27,600
contest except ours is for physics and

46
00:01:31,190 --> 00:01:29,220
Consciousness as well if you have an

47
00:01:33,469 --> 00:01:31,200
idea for some explainer of an advanced

48
00:01:35,090 --> 00:01:33,479
physics or Consciousness concept then

49
00:01:36,770 --> 00:01:35,100
think about creating a video for this

50
00:01:38,690 --> 00:01:36,780
and submitting as you have the chance to

51
00:01:40,550 --> 00:01:38,700
win one thousand dollars brilliances

52
00:01:42,109 --> 00:01:40,560
come in to give five thousand among the

53
00:01:43,850 --> 00:01:42,119
top five so that's one thousand for each

54
00:01:45,190 --> 00:01:43,860
the second announcement is that there's

55
00:01:47,510 --> 00:01:45,200
a new

56
00:01:49,370 --> 00:01:47,520
theoriesofeverything.org website this is

57
00:01:52,370 --> 00:01:49,380
a website where you can support toe

58
00:01:54,530 --> 00:01:52,380
slash Kurt which is me instead of on

59
00:01:56,450 --> 00:01:54,540
patreon because patreon takes a huge cut

60
00:01:58,130 --> 00:01:56,460
as well as PayPal takes a cut there's

61
00:01:59,630 --> 00:01:58,140
many different places that take their

62
00:02:02,030 --> 00:01:59,640
share and as a Creator you don't have

63
00:02:04,850 --> 00:02:02,040
control over your donations so for

64
00:02:06,889 --> 00:02:04,860
instance patreon may decide to shut you

65
00:02:08,510 --> 00:02:06,899
down for whatever reason they like there

66
00:02:10,309 --> 00:02:08,520
are also a variety of benefits that come

67
00:02:11,809 --> 00:02:10,319
with being a member on the toe website

68
00:02:13,430 --> 00:02:11,819
for instance you get an ad free version

69
00:02:15,710 --> 00:02:13,440
of the shows that are coming out an

70
00:02:17,690 --> 00:02:15,720
audio ad-free version that is to say you

71
00:02:19,250 --> 00:02:17,700
get a private link to the RSS feed to

72
00:02:21,949 --> 00:02:19,260
download the audio versions and they

73
00:02:23,930 --> 00:02:21,959
come out about 12 to 48 Hours sometimes

74
00:02:25,790 --> 00:02:23,940
even one week prior to you seeing them

75
00:02:27,650 --> 00:02:25,800
here on YouTube Just so you know the way

76
00:02:29,089 --> 00:02:27,660
that it works is that I finished editing

77
00:02:30,890 --> 00:02:29,099
and then I have to do another run

78
00:02:33,470 --> 00:02:30,900
through and go through timestamps and

79
00:02:36,050 --> 00:02:33,480
catalog references and so on that takes

80
00:02:38,390 --> 00:02:36,060
time and what it means is that I put it

81
00:02:40,250 --> 00:02:38,400
out on YouTube and then I have a lag so

82
00:02:42,229 --> 00:02:40,260
that I can build up some hype and some

83
00:02:43,670 --> 00:02:42,239
audience prior to the premiere but then

84
00:02:46,550 --> 00:02:43,680
that means that I've actually finished

85
00:02:48,350 --> 00:02:46,560
the episode a couple days before so what

86
00:02:50,509 --> 00:02:48,360
I'll do is I'll upload simultaneously

87
00:02:52,369 --> 00:02:50,519
for the members and audio version ads

88
00:02:54,589 --> 00:02:52,379
free and then later it premieres on

89
00:02:56,330 --> 00:02:54,599
YouTube for you as the YouTube audience

90
00:02:57,890 --> 00:02:56,340
nothing changes this is the way I've

91
00:03:00,410 --> 00:02:57,900
always done it it's just that I have

92
00:03:02,330 --> 00:03:00,420
here an audio version for a little while

93
00:03:04,190 --> 00:03:02,340
prior which I'm going to release to the

94
00:03:05,570 --> 00:03:04,200
toe members as a thank you and it's

95
00:03:06,890 --> 00:03:05,580
going to be ads free so that's one of

96
00:03:09,229 --> 00:03:06,900
the benefits from this point forward

97
00:03:11,149 --> 00:03:09,239
there may be mid-rolls that is ads in

98
00:03:13,369 --> 00:03:11,159
the middle of a podcast and that's just

99
00:03:16,070 --> 00:03:13,379
part and parcel of the total members of

100
00:03:17,930 --> 00:03:16,080
the tow audience you are sponsoring toe

101
00:03:19,369 --> 00:03:17,940
and then the sponsors also sponsor toe

102
00:03:21,410 --> 00:03:19,379
so thank you for your support those

103
00:03:23,089 --> 00:03:21,420
won't be there in the audio ads free

104
00:03:25,309 --> 00:03:23,099
version for the toe members second

105
00:03:27,530 --> 00:03:25,319
benefit is that you get discounts to any

106
00:03:30,410 --> 00:03:27,540
Live Events when we do have them for

107
00:03:32,509 --> 00:03:30,420
instance I'd like to do Carl friston in

108
00:03:34,729 --> 00:03:32,519
London live in front of an audience same

109
00:03:36,470 --> 00:03:34,739
with Eman Gilchrist and John vervaki at

110
00:03:38,330 --> 00:03:36,480
some point another benefit is that there

111
00:03:39,949 --> 00:03:38,340
will be exclusive merch offered to the

112
00:03:41,570 --> 00:03:39,959
toe members another benefit is that

113
00:03:43,369 --> 00:03:41,580
there's a number to text me again if

114
00:03:45,110 --> 00:03:43,379
that's what you're into we're testing

115
00:03:46,970 --> 00:03:45,120
this out for about a month and yes this

116
00:03:49,009 --> 00:03:46,980
is something where I am texting you back

117
00:03:50,869 --> 00:03:49,019
to your phone throughout much of this

118
00:03:52,610 --> 00:03:50,879
you can see that the artwork here is

119
00:03:54,649 --> 00:03:52,620
exquisite on the website and that's

120
00:03:57,050 --> 00:03:54,659
because it's been done by Boris Martinez

121
00:03:58,789 --> 00:03:57,060
Costello a link to his Instagram is in

122
00:04:00,949 --> 00:03:58,799
the description as well thank you Boris

123
00:04:01,930 --> 00:04:00,959
thank you so much as for today's sponsor

124
00:04:03,710 --> 00:04:01,940
it's

125
00:04:05,750 --> 00:04:03,720
brilliantbrilliant.org now Brilliance

126
00:04:07,309 --> 00:04:05,760
has been with toe since near the

127
00:04:09,649 --> 00:04:07,319
beginning I recommend you check out

128
00:04:11,330 --> 00:04:09,659
brilliant.org toe if you're interested

129
00:04:13,610 --> 00:04:11,340
in learning math and physics and science

130
00:04:14,929 --> 00:04:13,620
so brilliant is a place that you go to

131
00:04:16,370 --> 00:04:14,939
learn about stem subjects in an

132
00:04:19,009 --> 00:04:16,380
interactive manner they have these

133
00:04:21,110 --> 00:04:19,019
bite-sized courses it's extremely easy

134
00:04:23,510 --> 00:04:21,120
you may think that special relativity is

135
00:04:25,010 --> 00:04:23,520
beyond you no it's not it's something

136
00:04:26,749 --> 00:04:25,020
that someone can understand in

137
00:04:29,390 --> 00:04:26,759
elementary school the way that brilliant

138
00:04:30,830 --> 00:04:29,400
breaks down these extremely ordinarily

139
00:04:32,629 --> 00:04:30,840
extremely advanced concepts is

140
00:04:35,450 --> 00:04:32,639
Elementary at some point I'll be doing

141
00:04:37,790 --> 00:04:35,460
an introduction to information theory in

142
00:04:40,010 --> 00:04:37,800
particular there's David Deutsch and

143
00:04:41,810 --> 00:04:40,020
Chiara marleto's Constructor Theory and

144
00:04:43,550 --> 00:04:41,820
because I'd like to learn that I decided

145
00:04:45,590 --> 00:04:43,560
let me brush up on the fundamentals of

146
00:04:47,450 --> 00:04:45,600
information Theory and I took Brilliance

147
00:04:51,170 --> 00:04:47,460
course just to do so over this winter

148
00:04:53,810 --> 00:04:51,180
break visit brilliant.org toe that's toe

149
00:04:54,890 --> 00:04:53,820
to get 20 off the annual subscription I

150
00:04:57,170 --> 00:04:54,900
recommend that you don't stop before

151
00:04:59,330 --> 00:04:57,180
four lessons just keep going until you

152
00:05:01,249 --> 00:04:59,340
hit four and you'll be greatly surprised

153
00:05:03,530 --> 00:05:01,259
at the easy which you can now comprehend

154
00:05:05,689 --> 00:05:03,540
subjects you previously had a difficult

155
00:05:07,249 --> 00:05:05,699
time grocking okay thank you and enjoy

156
00:05:08,629 --> 00:05:07,259
today's episode we'll start this by

157
00:05:11,510 --> 00:05:08,639
asking each of you what is the meaning

158
00:05:14,290 --> 00:05:11,520
crisis and what are its causes and we'll

159
00:05:17,689 --> 00:05:14,300
start with Ian if you don't mind well

160
00:05:19,129 --> 00:05:17,699
what I understand by it is is the fact

161
00:05:22,610 --> 00:05:19,139
that people have

162
00:05:25,430 --> 00:05:22,620
lost any sense that things really speak

163
00:05:27,830 --> 00:05:25,440
to them from somewhere beyond their own

164
00:05:33,050 --> 00:05:27,840
what they've made up in their own minds

165
00:05:39,110 --> 00:05:36,290
um great possibly Transcendent certainly

166
00:05:41,810 --> 00:05:39,120
of existential importance is harder now

167
00:05:44,270 --> 00:05:41,820
because we live in a world of reductive

168
00:05:47,050 --> 00:05:44,280
materialism in which everything is

169
00:05:50,990 --> 00:05:47,060
supposed to be explained as the dead

170
00:05:54,710 --> 00:05:51,000
movements of mechanical pieces

171
00:05:57,170 --> 00:05:54,720
um I I think this is not only incredibly

172
00:05:59,749 --> 00:05:57,180
unhealthy and causes mental illness

173
00:06:02,810 --> 00:05:59,759
which is not just my opinion but the

174
00:06:05,270 --> 00:06:02,820
statistics speak for themselves

175
00:06:08,230 --> 00:06:05,280
but is

176
00:06:10,370 --> 00:06:08,240
a huge mistake in its conception because

177
00:06:12,290 --> 00:06:10,380
I don't believe that meaning is

178
00:06:14,510 --> 00:06:12,300
something we make up I believe it's

179
00:06:16,490 --> 00:06:14,520
something we find and we have to put our

180
00:06:18,409 --> 00:06:16,500
way ourselves in the way of finding it

181
00:06:20,570 --> 00:06:18,419
and that would mean

182
00:06:22,550 --> 00:06:20,580
putting a certain degree of

183
00:06:24,230 --> 00:06:22,560
vulnerability of opening oneself to

184
00:06:26,090 --> 00:06:24,240
something in case one finds there's

185
00:06:28,129 --> 00:06:26,100
something there and if one doesn't open

186
00:06:31,010 --> 00:06:28,139
oneself through one won't find that at

187
00:06:34,490 --> 00:06:31,020
all I think it applies to

188
00:06:37,490 --> 00:06:34,500
um spiritual life to religion in as much

189
00:06:41,529 --> 00:06:37,500
as that is part of it or many people and

190
00:06:44,210 --> 00:06:41,539
it also applies to experiences of Art

191
00:06:45,950 --> 00:06:44,220
and the experiences of one another and

192
00:06:48,170 --> 00:06:45,960
what it is to be a human being we've

193
00:06:50,710 --> 00:06:48,180
degraded ourselves and then find

194
00:06:54,170 --> 00:06:50,720
ourselves in a nihilistic

195
00:06:57,230 --> 00:06:54,180
Universe where nothing makes sense and

196
00:06:59,330 --> 00:06:57,240
nothing has meaning and that's a very

197
00:07:02,090 --> 00:06:59,340
dangerous place to be for a number of

198
00:07:05,090 --> 00:07:02,100
reasons for the course of civilization

199
00:07:09,830 --> 00:07:05,100
and also for each of us as individuals

200
00:07:11,809 --> 00:07:09,840
so yes it's a very important element in

201
00:07:14,990 --> 00:07:11,819
the position we find ourselves in as you

202
00:07:18,710 --> 00:07:15,000
know one of the things I believe has

203
00:07:21,070 --> 00:07:18,720
happened is that gradually over the

204
00:07:25,510 --> 00:07:21,080
course of recent western civilization

205
00:07:30,170 --> 00:07:25,520
and particularly after the enlightenment

206
00:07:32,990 --> 00:07:30,180
we we overreached ourselves we we were

207
00:07:35,689 --> 00:07:33,000
not content with the idea that

208
00:07:39,469 --> 00:07:35,699
um thinking rationally helps banish many

209
00:07:42,170 --> 00:07:39,479
unnecessary woes and mistakes and and so

210
00:07:44,270 --> 00:07:42,180
on but that we actually could understand

211
00:07:45,830 --> 00:07:44,280
everything and once you think you can

212
00:07:47,450 --> 00:07:45,840
understand everything your chances of

213
00:07:48,909 --> 00:07:47,460
understanding anything

214
00:07:51,890 --> 00:07:48,919
are remote

215
00:07:55,730 --> 00:07:51,900
and this has been taken to hubristic

216
00:07:58,490 --> 00:07:55,740
extremes during uh our lifetimes

217
00:08:00,110 --> 00:07:58,500
and I associate this with the rise of a

218
00:08:03,350 --> 00:08:00,120
certain way of thinking about the world

219
00:08:06,170 --> 00:08:03,360
that I believe is the way in which the

220
00:08:09,350 --> 00:08:06,180
left hemisphere operates it it has

221
00:08:12,230 --> 00:08:09,360
evolved the way it has because it helps

222
00:08:14,270 --> 00:08:12,240
us grab stuff and get stuff but it has

223
00:08:17,029 --> 00:08:14,280
outsourced the business of meaning and

224
00:08:18,890 --> 00:08:17,039
understanding to the right hemisphere

225
00:08:21,170 --> 00:08:18,900
or to put it another way the right

226
00:08:23,150 --> 00:08:21,180
hemisphere has Outsource grabbing and

227
00:08:25,189 --> 00:08:23,160
getting stuff to the left hemisphere and

228
00:08:27,249 --> 00:08:25,199
remained able to understand

229
00:08:29,809 --> 00:08:27,259
and that would bring a different

230
00:08:31,670 --> 00:08:29,819
relationship between ourselves and the

231
00:08:34,670 --> 00:08:31,680
world indeed I think this idea of

232
00:08:36,469 --> 00:08:34,680
relationship and encounters with reality

233
00:08:38,389 --> 00:08:36,479
is a very important one which no doubt

234
00:08:39,889 --> 00:08:38,399
will come back to it I argue in my

235
00:08:42,350 --> 00:08:39,899
latest book the matter with things has

236
00:08:44,870 --> 00:08:42,360
in fact relations of what everything is

237
00:08:47,990 --> 00:08:44,880
built out of and that relations are even

238
00:08:49,550 --> 00:08:48,000
prior to relata so that would be my

239
00:08:54,949 --> 00:08:49,560
first

240
00:08:56,509 --> 00:08:54,959
what I think about that huge question

241
00:08:57,769 --> 00:08:56,519
well

242
00:08:59,150 --> 00:08:57,779
um and I suppose that's one of the

243
00:09:01,190 --> 00:08:59,160
reasons why we're talking my answer is

244
00:09:03,769 --> 00:09:01,200
going to be uh I find at least in my

245
00:09:05,570 --> 00:09:03,779
mind by conversion with what Ian said

246
00:09:07,490 --> 00:09:05,580
um so but I'll start from a different

247
00:09:10,310 --> 00:09:07,500
place but I think I'll end up in the

248
00:09:11,090 --> 00:09:10,320
same or very close to where he ended up

249
00:09:13,370 --> 00:09:11,100
um

250
00:09:15,650 --> 00:09:13,380
I think the very processes that make us

251
00:09:17,750 --> 00:09:15,660
intelligently adaptive make us

252
00:09:20,269 --> 00:09:17,760
parentally susceptible to self-deceptive

253
00:09:23,269 --> 00:09:20,279
self-destructive behavior

254
00:09:25,670 --> 00:09:23,279
um and that the cross time and culture

255
00:09:27,610 --> 00:09:25,680
people have come up with complex systems

256
00:09:29,990 --> 00:09:27,620
because this is a very complex system

257
00:09:32,389 --> 00:09:30,000
ecologies of practices I call them for

258
00:09:34,250 --> 00:09:32,399
intervening and ameliorating that

259
00:09:37,430 --> 00:09:34,260
self-deceptive self-destructive behavior

260
00:09:39,410 --> 00:09:37,440
and also enhancing the sense of

261
00:09:44,449 --> 00:09:39,420
connectedness

262
00:09:48,110 --> 00:09:46,190
deceptive self-destructive Behavior

263
00:09:50,449 --> 00:09:48,120
that's to oneself to other people to the

264
00:09:52,130 --> 00:09:50,459
world and when you take a look at that

265
00:09:53,690 --> 00:09:52,140
sense of connectedness it overlaps very

266
00:09:56,210 --> 00:09:53,700
much with what's called meaning in life

267
00:09:57,949 --> 00:09:56,220
and it's and as Ian said we want to feel

268
00:10:00,769 --> 00:09:57,959
that we are connected to something that

269
00:10:03,470 --> 00:10:00,779
has a value and a reality other than our

270
00:10:05,269 --> 00:10:03,480
own egocentric preferences and existence

271
00:10:06,769 --> 00:10:05,279
all right so I'll often ask people what

272
00:10:08,090 --> 00:10:06,779
do you mean by meaning in life and I'll

273
00:10:10,130 --> 00:10:08,100
say well tell me what you would want to

274
00:10:12,290 --> 00:10:10,140
continue existing even if you weren't

275
00:10:13,910 --> 00:10:12,300
here and they'll tell me and I'll tell

276
00:10:16,070 --> 00:10:13,920
and they'll say that's what matters to

277
00:10:17,630 --> 00:10:16,080
you that's what you want that's what you

278
00:10:19,670 --> 00:10:17,640
want to be connected to beyond your

279
00:10:21,889 --> 00:10:19,680
egocentric preferences and your

280
00:10:25,910 --> 00:10:21,899
egocentric existence

281
00:10:27,350 --> 00:10:25,920
I think the capacity to ameliorate that

282
00:10:30,110 --> 00:10:27,360
self-deceptive self-destructive

283
00:10:32,449 --> 00:10:30,120
foolishness and to enhance the sense of

284
00:10:34,910 --> 00:10:32,459
connectedness is what people what

285
00:10:38,269 --> 00:10:34,920
cultures have called wisdom and I think

286
00:10:40,070 --> 00:10:38,279
what we're facing today is a two-pronged

287
00:10:41,630 --> 00:10:40,080
problem

288
00:10:44,269 --> 00:10:41,640
um people don't know where to go for

289
00:10:46,910 --> 00:10:44,279
wisdom they overwhelmingly know to where

290
00:10:49,430 --> 00:10:46,920
to go for information but like T.S Eliot

291
00:10:50,509 --> 00:10:49,440
said we have lost the wisdom and the

292
00:10:53,090 --> 00:10:50,519
knowledge and the knowledge and the

293
00:10:54,710 --> 00:10:53,100
information so they precisely lack the

294
00:10:56,090 --> 00:10:54,720
discernment as to what they should pay

295
00:10:58,550 --> 00:10:56,100
attention to what they should take

296
00:11:00,829 --> 00:10:58,560
seriously what really matters so they're

297
00:11:02,870 --> 00:11:00,839
overwhelmed with information what counts

298
00:11:04,730 --> 00:11:02,880
as knowledge is now significantly in

299
00:11:05,990 --> 00:11:04,740
question in our culture and of course

300
00:11:08,449 --> 00:11:06,000
when I ask people where they go for

301
00:11:10,970 --> 00:11:08,459
wisdom I either get a deafening silence

302
00:11:13,970 --> 00:11:10,980
or I get some autodidactic religion of

303
00:11:16,370 --> 00:11:13,980
me that the person gives me typically

304
00:11:17,990 --> 00:11:16,380
um and so

305
00:11:20,870 --> 00:11:18,000
um the fastest growing group in our

306
00:11:23,030 --> 00:11:20,880
culture are the nuns n-o-n-e-s they have

307
00:11:24,470 --> 00:11:23,040
no official religious affiliation that

308
00:11:26,810 --> 00:11:24,480
does not mean they are overwhelmingly

309
00:11:29,210 --> 00:11:26,820
atheist they are by and large they

310
00:11:31,790 --> 00:11:29,220
describe themselves by this phrase that

311
00:11:33,050 --> 00:11:31,800
is very popular to exactly agree to

312
00:11:35,030 --> 00:11:33,060
which I find it vapid if they're

313
00:11:36,829 --> 00:11:35,040
spiritual but not religious and it's

314
00:11:38,810 --> 00:11:36,839
very hard to determine what that

315
00:11:40,190 --> 00:11:38,820
actually means other than they have some

316
00:11:42,290 --> 00:11:40,200
intuitive sense that they should be

317
00:11:44,930 --> 00:11:42,300
seeking wisdom they should be seeking

318
00:11:47,449 --> 00:11:44,940
connectedness but they distrust any of

319
00:11:49,970 --> 00:11:47,459
the institutionalized sources the

320
00:11:51,410 --> 00:11:49,980
problem is the the what was supposed to

321
00:11:53,630 --> 00:11:51,420
offer

322
00:11:56,090 --> 00:11:53,640
you'll so religions have been the home

323
00:11:58,250 --> 00:11:56,100
for these ecologies of practices and the

324
00:12:00,470 --> 00:11:58,260
enlightenment offered to free us from

325
00:12:02,269 --> 00:12:00,480
the tyranny of religion and give us an

326
00:12:04,310 --> 00:12:02,279
alternative home

327
00:12:07,009 --> 00:12:04,320
and it gave us

328
00:12:08,690 --> 00:12:07,019
gave us the scientific worldview a

329
00:12:10,490 --> 00:12:08,700
scientific worldview which explains

330
00:12:12,889 --> 00:12:10,500
everything except how we generate

331
00:12:15,230 --> 00:12:12,899
science and the meaning that makes truth

332
00:12:17,569 --> 00:12:15,240
possible and how science itself could

333
00:12:20,630 --> 00:12:17,579
possibly exist as a real entity within

334
00:12:23,269 --> 00:12:20,640
the ontology of that world of you and so

335
00:12:27,769 --> 00:12:23,279
we and our science actually have no

336
00:12:29,630 --> 00:12:27,779
proper home in that worldview and so the

337
00:12:32,090 --> 00:12:29,640
science can't provide the home for the

338
00:12:34,910 --> 00:12:32,100
Ecology of practices the religions are

339
00:12:38,210 --> 00:12:34,920
are now largely regarded as obsolete or

340
00:12:40,550 --> 00:12:38,220
irrelevant uh for of homing the Ecology

341
00:12:44,810 --> 00:12:40,560
of practices and so the perennial

342
00:12:47,210 --> 00:12:44,820
problems now go largely uh unabated or

343
00:12:49,550 --> 00:12:47,220
ameliorated at Best by autodidactic

344
00:12:53,329 --> 00:12:49,560
systems that have a strong proclivity

345
00:12:54,769 --> 00:12:53,339
for enhancing personal bias or group

346
00:12:57,410 --> 00:12:54,779
Echo chambering and of course social

347
00:13:00,710 --> 00:12:57,420
media has just exacerbated uh both of

348
00:13:03,230 --> 00:13:00,720
these Tendencies uh tremendously

349
00:13:06,530 --> 00:13:03,240
and so we starve for meaning

350
00:13:08,930 --> 00:13:06,540
uh in the midst of a wisdom famine we

351
00:13:11,150 --> 00:13:08,940
can't ignore a scientific worldview

352
00:13:14,569 --> 00:13:11,160
but that worldview does not properly

353
00:13:17,090 --> 00:13:14,579
Place us and what it does is it gives a

354
00:13:19,269 --> 00:13:17,100
tremendous emphasis on propositional

355
00:13:20,930 --> 00:13:19,279
knowing at the expense of all the

356
00:13:22,910 --> 00:13:20,940
non-propositional kinds of knowing

357
00:13:24,590 --> 00:13:22,920
procedural perspectival and

358
00:13:26,750 --> 00:13:24,600
participatory so we live in a

359
00:13:28,670 --> 00:13:26,760
propositional tyranny that prevents us

360
00:13:31,490 --> 00:13:28,680
from accessing those ways of knowing

361
00:13:34,069 --> 00:13:31,500
that would are properly the most

362
00:13:36,050 --> 00:13:34,079
powerful Vehicles by which we can

363
00:13:38,449 --> 00:13:36,060
cultivate wisdom and a sense of

364
00:13:40,490 --> 00:13:38,459
connectedness and I think that is the

365
00:13:42,650 --> 00:13:40,500
meaning crisis and that is the situation

366
00:13:44,030 --> 00:13:42,660
they're in and it's getting worse and

367
00:13:45,650 --> 00:13:44,040
worse

368
00:13:47,990 --> 00:13:45,660
um people experience it as a kind of

369
00:13:49,850 --> 00:13:48,000
domicide a loss of home even though they

370
00:13:52,310 --> 00:13:49,860
have shelter

371
00:13:53,930 --> 00:13:52,320
um and covid made it much much worse and

372
00:13:56,329 --> 00:13:53,940
we are seeing the mental health tsunami

373
00:13:58,129 --> 00:13:56,339
and the political ramifications of the

374
00:13:59,030 --> 00:13:58,139
acceleration of the meeting crisis right

375
00:14:01,250 --> 00:13:59,040
now

376
00:14:04,550 --> 00:14:01,260
that would be my take on it and one more

377
00:14:07,009 --> 00:14:06,170
because it's conversion with what Ian

378
00:14:11,030 --> 00:14:07,019
said

379
00:14:13,310 --> 00:14:11,040
we've lost alitha we've lost the sense

380
00:14:16,490 --> 00:14:13,320
of Truth as what I call transjectivity

381
00:14:18,769 --> 00:14:16,500
the deeper thing that binds subjectivity

382
00:14:20,449 --> 00:14:18,779
and objectivity together the thing that

383
00:14:23,329 --> 00:14:20,459
is being given prominence by four

384
00:14:26,569 --> 00:14:23,339
e-cognitive science and meaning is such

385
00:14:28,910 --> 00:14:26,579
a real transgender relation it's not a

386
00:14:31,850 --> 00:14:28,920
it's not arbitrarily subjective it's not

387
00:14:33,889 --> 00:14:31,860
merely objectively measurable it is a

388
00:14:36,530 --> 00:14:33,899
proper real relation that's why I use

389
00:14:39,769 --> 00:14:36,540
the term connectedness

390
00:14:41,329 --> 00:14:39,779
that's um that's what I would say there

391
00:14:43,250 --> 00:14:41,339
Ian is there anything there that you

392
00:14:46,370 --> 00:14:43,260
would like to respond to

393
00:14:49,329 --> 00:14:46,380
I mean I I would in a broadly accept

394
00:14:51,710 --> 00:14:49,339
what what um Jonah said I mean he's he's

395
00:14:53,210 --> 00:14:51,720
put really the same points I was trying

396
00:14:55,069 --> 00:14:53,220
to make but just in slightly different

397
00:14:57,050 --> 00:14:55,079
way with perhaps from a different

398
00:14:57,710 --> 00:14:57,060
perspective

399
00:15:00,050 --> 00:14:57,720
um

400
00:15:01,430 --> 00:15:00,060
I think we both see the importance of

401
00:15:05,810 --> 00:15:01,440
something

402
00:15:08,870 --> 00:15:05,820
that calls to us we can't we feel

403
00:15:11,090 --> 00:15:08,880
ourselves attracted towards something

404
00:15:12,410 --> 00:15:11,100
um and we've lost the confidence to go

405
00:15:15,769 --> 00:15:12,420
there because

406
00:15:17,990 --> 00:15:15,779
um technology and information have

407
00:15:20,389 --> 00:15:18,000
substituted for deep knowledge and

408
00:15:22,310 --> 00:15:20,399
wisdom which is really what what's John

409
00:15:24,590 --> 00:15:22,320
was saying

410
00:15:26,150 --> 00:15:24,600
um and I think the dangers

411
00:15:29,449 --> 00:15:26,160
in

412
00:15:31,250 --> 00:15:29,459
I mean the technology problem is the

413
00:15:33,650 --> 00:15:31,260
genius out of the box and it can't be

414
00:15:35,210 --> 00:15:33,660
put back in but one of the difficulties

415
00:15:37,129 --> 00:15:35,220
about it is all it does it doesn't

416
00:15:39,470 --> 00:15:37,139
answer any questions of course all it

417
00:15:40,569 --> 00:15:39,480
does is enlarge our powers to alter

418
00:15:43,790 --> 00:15:40,579
things

419
00:15:46,670 --> 00:15:43,800
and that's only as good as our wisdom

420
00:15:49,490 --> 00:15:46,680
about what needs whole thing and in what

421
00:15:51,530 --> 00:15:49,500
way into what end and I don't believe we

422
00:15:53,629 --> 00:15:51,540
have that wisdom at all we have more

423
00:15:57,050 --> 00:15:53,639
power than we've ever had

424
00:15:59,930 --> 00:15:57,060
in the history of humanity and the least

425
00:16:02,810 --> 00:15:59,940
wisdom we've ever had I believe

426
00:16:05,689 --> 00:16:02,820
and I think that this what

427
00:16:07,069 --> 00:16:05,699
um John was calling the the rise of

428
00:16:08,449 --> 00:16:07,079
propositional knowledge is very

429
00:16:13,009 --> 00:16:08,459
important when it comes to look at

430
00:16:17,329 --> 00:16:13,019
things like belief in the nature of

431
00:16:20,090 --> 00:16:17,339
God or the world because I think they

432
00:16:22,310 --> 00:16:20,100
are dispositional forms of knowing not

433
00:16:24,829 --> 00:16:22,320
propositional forms of knowing and

434
00:16:27,170 --> 00:16:24,839
unfortunately in recent history they've

435
00:16:29,150 --> 00:16:27,180
been presented to us as propositions

436
00:16:31,550 --> 00:16:29,160
that we either are sent to or fail to

437
00:16:34,670 --> 00:16:31,560
assent to whereas in fact it's a matter

438
00:16:37,970 --> 00:16:34,680
of how we attend to the world because

439
00:16:40,430 --> 00:16:37,980
attention is absolutely at the root of

440
00:16:42,889 --> 00:16:40,440
all of this problem we see

441
00:16:44,810 --> 00:16:42,899
coffee helps me work it helps me fast

442
00:16:46,850 --> 00:16:44,820
from carbs it's become one of the best

443
00:16:48,230 --> 00:16:46,860
parts of my day consistently that's why

444
00:16:50,329 --> 00:16:48,240
I'm delighted that we're collaborating

445
00:16:52,550 --> 00:16:50,339
with Trade coffee they partner with top

446
00:16:54,769 --> 00:16:52,560
independent Roasters to Freshly roast

447
00:16:56,810 --> 00:16:54,779
and send the finest coffee in the

448
00:16:58,850 --> 00:16:56,820
country directly to your home on your

449
00:17:01,009 --> 00:16:58,860
preferred schedule this matters to me as

450
00:17:03,230 --> 00:17:01,019
I work from home their team of experts

451
00:17:05,750 --> 00:17:03,240
do all the work testing hundreds of

452
00:17:09,169 --> 00:17:05,760
disparate coffees to land on a final

453
00:17:11,510 --> 00:17:09,179
curated collection of 450 exceptional

454
00:17:13,490 --> 00:17:11,520
coffees I chose these three and the team

455
00:17:15,049 --> 00:17:13,500
at Trade coffee worked to create a

456
00:17:17,090 --> 00:17:15,059
special lineup for theories of

457
00:17:19,010 --> 00:17:17,100
everything for the tow audience based on

458
00:17:20,870 --> 00:17:19,020
some questions they asked me such as how

459
00:17:23,090 --> 00:17:20,880
much caffeine do I enjoy and what's the

460
00:17:25,309 --> 00:17:23,100
bitterness ratio Etc you can get that

461
00:17:27,350 --> 00:17:25,319
line up or if that's not let's say your

462
00:17:29,750 --> 00:17:27,360
cup of coffee then you can take your own

463
00:17:32,030 --> 00:17:29,760
quiz on their website to find a set that

464
00:17:33,650 --> 00:17:32,040
matches your specific profile if you'd

465
00:17:35,390 --> 00:17:33,660
like to support small businesses and

466
00:17:37,970 --> 00:17:35,400
Brew the best cup of coffee you've ever

467
00:17:40,070 --> 00:17:37,980
made at home then it's time to try Trade

468
00:17:42,529 --> 00:17:40,080
coffee right now trade is offering our

469
00:17:45,430 --> 00:17:42,539
listeners thirty dollars off your first

470
00:17:48,970 --> 00:17:45,440
order plus free shipping at

471
00:17:51,950 --> 00:17:48,980
drinktrade.com everything that's

472
00:17:53,029 --> 00:17:51,960
drinktrade.com everything for thirty

473
00:17:54,890 --> 00:17:53,039
dollars off

474
00:17:57,110 --> 00:17:54,900
do you use the word rationality and

475
00:18:00,289 --> 00:17:57,120
belief differently than John

476
00:18:02,930 --> 00:18:00,299
um I don't know I have no idea whether

477
00:18:05,630 --> 00:18:02,940
we do or not I mean I tend to make a

478
00:18:07,850 --> 00:18:05,640
distinction which is not one that's hard

479
00:18:11,210 --> 00:18:07,860
and fast in the English language but is

480
00:18:12,830 --> 00:18:11,220
one I make for the purposes of being

481
00:18:15,529 --> 00:18:12,840
clear about what I'm talking about or

482
00:18:17,510 --> 00:18:15,539
clearer and that is to make a

483
00:18:21,049 --> 00:18:17,520
distinction between rationality and

484
00:18:24,590 --> 00:18:21,059
reason the rationality is a more

485
00:18:27,590 --> 00:18:24,600
technical thing but reason is the whole

486
00:18:29,150 --> 00:18:27,600
of one's ability to understand the world

487
00:18:31,909 --> 00:18:29,160
bringing together everything one has

488
00:18:35,150 --> 00:18:31,919
learned from experience one's ability to

489
00:18:37,010 --> 00:18:35,160
yes reason using logic one's ability to

490
00:18:39,470 --> 00:18:37,020
attend to one's intuitions it's the

491
00:18:41,870 --> 00:18:39,480
power that a good judge in the old days

492
00:18:45,730 --> 00:18:41,880
a wise judge as we would have thought of

493
00:18:49,130 --> 00:18:45,740
him usually would have been him uh

494
00:18:51,409 --> 00:18:49,140
brought to bear on a human situation so

495
00:18:53,750 --> 00:18:51,419
that's rationality I think it's terribly

496
00:18:56,330 --> 00:18:53,760
important I think in our I don't want to

497
00:18:59,870 --> 00:18:56,340
knock it at all it's just that it's it's

498
00:19:03,169 --> 00:18:59,880
certain very diminished form of it I.E

499
00:19:06,230 --> 00:19:03,179
the most mechanical rationalizations has

500
00:19:08,390 --> 00:19:06,240
taken over from that deep reason that

501
00:19:10,310 --> 00:19:08,400
deep wisdom which which was much admired

502
00:19:13,730 --> 00:19:10,320
in the Renaissance was thought to be the

503
00:19:15,770 --> 00:19:13,740
the sign of a fully educated and and

504
00:19:19,669 --> 00:19:15,780
well-read person

505
00:19:22,070 --> 00:19:19,679
so um I I think reasons in fact in

506
00:19:23,630 --> 00:19:22,080
danger in our time and also neither do I

507
00:19:26,090 --> 00:19:23,640
have anything to say against science

508
00:19:28,730 --> 00:19:26,100
science is hugely important and I'm very

509
00:19:31,730 --> 00:19:28,740
worried by the attacks on science for

510
00:19:33,830 --> 00:19:31,740
purely political reasons science is once

511
00:19:36,169 --> 00:19:33,840
we lose our anchors in reason and

512
00:19:38,270 --> 00:19:36,179
science we're totally lost but also if

513
00:19:41,169 --> 00:19:38,280
we only have reason and science we're

514
00:19:44,210 --> 00:19:41,179
lost they need to be mixed with properly

515
00:19:47,270 --> 00:19:44,220
what we can learn from intuition and

516
00:19:52,850 --> 00:19:51,529
so um uh I tend to use the word belief

517
00:19:54,470 --> 00:19:52,860
to mean the assertion of a proposition

518
00:19:56,930 --> 00:19:54,480
but I acknowledge it has an older

519
00:20:00,110 --> 00:19:56,940
meaning a Laban which is things in your

520
00:20:02,330 --> 00:20:00,120
heart to give your heart to exactly and

521
00:20:04,430 --> 00:20:02,340
uh but I've given up uh the Battle of

522
00:20:07,190 --> 00:20:04,440
trying to get people to use beliefs to

523
00:20:09,110 --> 00:20:07,200
mean that so I'll say you could keep it

524
00:20:11,270 --> 00:20:09,120
for the assertion of propositions I want

525
00:20:14,390 --> 00:20:11,280
to talk about something else that the

526
00:20:15,289 --> 00:20:14,400
Layman used to uh point to

527
00:20:17,870 --> 00:20:15,299
um

528
00:20:20,990 --> 00:20:17,880
I use I think I use rationality the way

529
00:20:25,610 --> 00:20:21,000
uh Ian uses reason and I'll give you my

530
00:20:28,070 --> 00:20:25,620
reasons which is I go back to the uh the

531
00:20:29,270 --> 00:20:28,080
word that translated logos and when I

532
00:20:31,490 --> 00:20:29,280
talk about rationality I'm talking about

533
00:20:33,730 --> 00:20:31,500
what the ancient Greeks meant by uh

534
00:20:37,190 --> 00:20:33,740
logos which is a much more comprehensive

535
00:20:39,230 --> 00:20:37,200
uh you know the the self-organizing of

536
00:20:41,330 --> 00:20:39,240
intelligibility such that the world can

537
00:20:43,490 --> 00:20:41,340
be real to us I think that's sort of the

538
00:20:45,289 --> 00:20:43,500
best understanding and the lat for that

539
00:20:47,510 --> 00:20:45,299
was ratio which means a proper

540
00:20:49,070 --> 00:20:47,520
proportioning and if you take a look at

541
00:20:51,049 --> 00:20:49,080
like if for example the use of the

542
00:20:53,090 --> 00:20:51,059
stoics or in Plato it means the proper

543
00:20:56,450 --> 00:20:53,100
proportioning as Ian said of attention

544
00:20:59,750 --> 00:20:56,460
it means the proper proportioning uh uh

545
00:21:01,850 --> 00:20:59,760
of your of your character traits uh

546
00:21:03,110 --> 00:21:01,860
think about Aristotle's golden mean you

547
00:21:05,930 --> 00:21:03,120
want to get the proper proportion

548
00:21:08,930 --> 00:21:05,940
between uh being cowardly and being full

549
00:21:10,789 --> 00:21:08,940
hearty so ratio is that much so ratio is

550
00:21:12,409 --> 00:21:10,799
the proper proportioning of your

551
00:21:14,570 --> 00:21:12,419
Consciousness your cognition and the

552
00:21:16,730 --> 00:21:14,580
character and your character such that

553
00:21:18,590 --> 00:21:16,740
virtue and virtue curiosity are possible

554
00:21:21,230 --> 00:21:18,600
that's and I think that's the ancient

555
00:21:23,750 --> 00:21:21,240
meaning of ratio and that's why I use

556
00:21:27,350 --> 00:21:23,760
rationality I reserve reason for the act

557
00:21:29,149 --> 00:21:27,360
of The Liberation uh but nothing much

558
00:21:31,070 --> 00:21:29,159
hangs on this distinction I think Ian

559
00:21:32,870 --> 00:21:31,080
and I are both pointing to something

560
00:21:34,250 --> 00:21:32,880
similar which is I talked about the

561
00:21:36,710 --> 00:21:34,260
truncation and the reduction of

562
00:21:38,990 --> 00:21:36,720
rationality to logicality and

563
00:21:41,149 --> 00:21:39,000
computation since the Advent of the

564
00:21:44,570 --> 00:21:41,159
Enlightenment and we have lost all those

565
00:21:46,970 --> 00:21:44,580
other aspects of

566
00:21:49,310 --> 00:21:46,980
um you know of rationality the proper

567
00:21:51,890 --> 00:21:49,320
proportioning like I say of attention of

568
00:21:55,370 --> 00:21:51,900
consciousness of character that is

569
00:21:58,490 --> 00:21:55,380
needed for virtue and I take virtue to

570
00:22:00,710 --> 00:21:58,500
not mean uh acting according to a moral

571
00:22:02,750 --> 00:22:00,720
rule like caught might but in the

572
00:22:04,610 --> 00:22:02,760
ancient sense of being deeply connected

573
00:22:06,950 --> 00:22:04,620
to what is most real

574
00:22:09,409 --> 00:22:06,960
so I think the person for example who

575
00:22:11,690 --> 00:22:09,419
demonstrates courage is able to see

576
00:22:15,470 --> 00:22:11,700
through the distractions and distortions

577
00:22:18,230 --> 00:22:15,480
of fear and connect to not just seeing

578
00:22:19,970 --> 00:22:18,240
but a properly connect to what is most

579
00:22:22,970 --> 00:22:19,980
real and what most matters in a

580
00:22:25,730 --> 00:22:22,980
situation and thereby has the affordance

581
00:22:27,590 --> 00:22:25,740
to act best in that situation that's

582
00:22:30,110 --> 00:22:27,600
what I mean by virtue connecting us to

583
00:22:32,390 --> 00:22:30,120
reality so rat for me rationality is

584
00:22:35,270 --> 00:22:32,400
exactly that capacity

585
00:22:37,789 --> 00:22:35,280
it's interesting that the word virtual

586
00:22:41,330 --> 00:22:37,799
now means precisely

587
00:22:43,430 --> 00:22:41,340
um not being real in the sense well

588
00:22:45,430 --> 00:22:43,440
that's that yeah and that's interesting

589
00:22:49,070 --> 00:22:45,440
I mean there is a connection because

590
00:22:51,529 --> 00:22:49,080
virtual have having the potential and

591
00:22:53,390 --> 00:22:51,539
the potential possibility

592
00:22:54,830 --> 00:22:53,400
um I'm aware of that

593
00:22:56,029 --> 00:22:54,840
um yeah I was just I don't think we're

594
00:22:58,010 --> 00:22:56,039
really disagreeing here I think it's

595
00:23:01,610 --> 00:22:58,020
just a matter of which words we choose

596
00:23:04,669 --> 00:23:01,620
to use sure yeah yeah I I like it uh

597
00:23:06,950 --> 00:23:04,679
because I I talk about ratio religio uh

598
00:23:09,169 --> 00:23:06,960
the the proper proportioning of how we

599
00:23:11,330 --> 00:23:09,179
are bound to things how we are connected

600
00:23:12,890 --> 00:23:11,340
to things and in that sense the

601
00:23:14,270 --> 00:23:12,900
distinction between what we've caught

602
00:23:17,029 --> 00:23:14,280
what we have since the enlightenment

603
00:23:21,169 --> 00:23:17,039
called rationality and what we used to

604
00:23:23,810 --> 00:23:21,179
call religion is is diminished uh

605
00:23:26,649 --> 00:23:23,820
because of religion is about again you

606
00:23:29,690 --> 00:23:26,659
know appropriately binding ourselves

607
00:23:32,330 --> 00:23:29,700
religio to what is most real the sacred

608
00:23:34,610 --> 00:23:32,340
then ratio religio and religion are no

609
00:23:36,770 --> 00:23:34,620
longer oppositional they have the

610
00:23:38,270 --> 00:23:36,780
potential to enter into real discourse

611
00:23:40,130 --> 00:23:38,280
with each other which I think is part of

612
00:23:42,590 --> 00:23:40,140
what is needed right now and I think I

613
00:23:44,210 --> 00:23:42,600
hear you saying that too I he I think

614
00:23:46,370 --> 00:23:44,220
you I hear you saying I agree with you

615
00:23:47,690 --> 00:23:46,380
I'm a scientist I love science and I

616
00:23:51,070 --> 00:23:47,700
think people who don't practice science

617
00:23:54,049 --> 00:23:51,080
should not uh recommend its eradication

618
00:23:56,270 --> 00:23:54,059
uh I I think that that is a ridiculous

619
00:23:58,310 --> 00:23:56,280
proposal it's even contradictory to

620
00:23:59,810 --> 00:23:58,320
their own claim that you have to have a

621
00:24:02,090 --> 00:23:59,820
lived experience of something in order

622
00:24:04,490 --> 00:24:02,100
to really understand it so I agree with

623
00:24:06,590 --> 00:24:04,500
you that that proposal is ridiculous but

624
00:24:08,390 --> 00:24:06,600
I think the the enlightenment proposal

625
00:24:11,149 --> 00:24:08,400
that everything that people were trying

626
00:24:13,370 --> 00:24:11,159
to Encompass what what in what was

627
00:24:15,289 --> 00:24:13,380
broadly called religion which includes a

628
00:24:18,649 --> 00:24:15,299
lot of what we now pulled out is Art and

629
00:24:21,409 --> 00:24:18,659
ritual and ceremony that that was also

630
00:24:24,049 --> 00:24:21,419
part of Rafael religio that was way in

631
00:24:26,210 --> 00:24:24,059
which we properly educated especially

632
00:24:29,330 --> 00:24:26,220
the non-propositional aspects of knowing

633
00:24:31,310 --> 00:24:29,340
uh that are are vital for the

634
00:24:32,090 --> 00:24:31,320
cultivation of virtue and a sense of

635
00:24:34,370 --> 00:24:32,100
meaning

636
00:24:36,350 --> 00:24:34,380
um so I agree with you there too and I

637
00:24:38,570 --> 00:24:36,360
hear you saying we should get those two

638
00:24:39,950 --> 00:24:38,580
at least it seems to me like you would

639
00:24:41,330 --> 00:24:39,960
agree with the proposal that we should

640
00:24:44,390 --> 00:24:41,340
find a way to get them talking to each

641
00:24:47,169 --> 00:24:44,400
other again past the division uh that

642
00:24:50,570 --> 00:24:47,179
separated them in the enlightenment

643
00:24:54,049 --> 00:24:50,580
yes certainly in um

644
00:24:56,330 --> 00:24:54,059
in the the new book

645
00:24:57,950 --> 00:24:56,340
um of mine which came out last year I

646
00:25:00,230 --> 00:24:57,960
have it I have it by the way Ian I

647
00:25:03,310 --> 00:25:00,240
haven't read it but I do have it so I

648
00:25:09,110 --> 00:25:06,830
I don't know I mean for that will be in

649
00:25:11,630 --> 00:25:09,120
the description how you'll find the time

650
00:25:14,870 --> 00:25:11,640
to read it I don't know but in this part

651
00:25:17,029 --> 00:25:14,880
two of that I specifically look at the

652
00:25:19,789 --> 00:25:17,039
various ways in which we can come to

653
00:25:24,710 --> 00:25:19,799
something we could call truth about the

654
00:25:27,769 --> 00:25:24,720
world and in in brief I did I conclude

655
00:25:31,549 --> 00:25:27,779
that we need each of science reason

656
00:25:34,370 --> 00:25:31,559
intuition and Imagination not just one

657
00:25:35,990 --> 00:25:34,380
or two of these and if possible in most

658
00:25:37,549 --> 00:25:36,000
situations we should try to bring as

659
00:25:40,070 --> 00:25:37,559
many of these as possible to bear

660
00:25:42,110 --> 00:25:40,080
however appropriate to whatever it is

661
00:25:43,970 --> 00:25:42,120
we're looking at I don't think this is

662
00:25:46,610 --> 00:25:43,980
what we're currently doing there's a

663
00:25:48,409 --> 00:25:46,620
sort of naive war between scientism

664
00:25:50,570 --> 00:25:48,419
people who've never really thought very

665
00:25:52,610 --> 00:25:50,580
much but just imagine that whatever it

666
00:25:56,450 --> 00:25:52,620
is they've fallen into believing about a

667
00:25:58,430 --> 00:25:56,460
Mechanical Universe must be right uh

668
00:26:00,289 --> 00:25:58,440
we've got a war on between them and and

669
00:26:02,750 --> 00:26:00,299
other people who reject science and

670
00:26:05,590 --> 00:26:02,760
reject reason and I I don't wish to

671
00:26:08,390 --> 00:26:05,600
encourage either party

672
00:26:10,130 --> 00:26:08,400
amongst those yeah I agree and I noticed

673
00:26:11,510 --> 00:26:10,140
in the second book because I have I I

674
00:26:14,690 --> 00:26:11,520
didn't just put it on the Shelf I have

675
00:26:16,909 --> 00:26:14,700
looked at it but it is yeah it's like I

676
00:26:18,169 --> 00:26:16,919
got to say this I didn't I this was a

677
00:26:19,850 --> 00:26:18,179
thunderbolt summer for me I was

678
00:26:22,310 --> 00:26:19,860
traveling so much and talking in so many

679
00:26:23,930 --> 00:26:22,320
places uh but but you also I did know it

680
00:26:26,090 --> 00:26:23,940
in a second you also talked about the

681
00:26:27,649 --> 00:26:26,100
sacred and recovering uh the sacred and

682
00:26:30,529 --> 00:26:27,659
the second part of the book as well so

683
00:26:33,830 --> 00:26:30,539
that's why I I was supposing that that

684
00:26:36,289 --> 00:26:33,840
uh whatever I'll propose to you that

685
00:26:38,090 --> 00:26:36,299
whatever the deficits and they're there

686
00:26:39,289 --> 00:26:38,100
they are many there were there are

687
00:26:40,970 --> 00:26:39,299
reasons behind the enlightenment

688
00:26:43,070 --> 00:26:40,980
critique but whatever deficits there are

689
00:26:44,750 --> 00:26:43,080
in religion it was an attempt to

690
00:26:47,529 --> 00:26:44,760
properly Orient people towards the

691
00:26:50,930 --> 00:26:47,539
sacred when it was functioning well yes

692
00:26:53,990 --> 00:26:50,940
undoubtedly yes yes and actually just to

693
00:26:56,630 --> 00:26:54,000
clarify for for viewers what um what

694
00:26:58,250 --> 00:26:56,640
John has just referred to is is not the

695
00:27:01,250 --> 00:26:58,260
part two that I was talking about is

696
00:27:03,669 --> 00:27:01,260
part three which confusingly is volume

697
00:27:06,470 --> 00:27:03,679
two oh okay sorry

698
00:27:07,909 --> 00:27:06,480
and the difference is that part two is

699
00:27:10,549 --> 00:27:07,919
epistemology in part three is

700
00:27:11,450 --> 00:27:10,559
metaphysics so I'm looking at what what

701
00:27:15,470 --> 00:27:11,460
is

702
00:27:18,529 --> 00:27:15,480
time motion space matter Consciousness

703
00:27:20,630 --> 00:27:18,539
what are values what his purpose what is

704
00:27:23,649 --> 00:27:20,640
the meaning of the feeling we have the

705
00:27:27,289 --> 00:27:23,659
sense of the Sacred and so on so that

706
00:27:28,549 --> 00:27:27,299
but anyway there we are well I'd like to

707
00:27:29,990 --> 00:27:28,559
talk to you about that but first I do

708
00:27:31,970 --> 00:27:30,000
want to talk to you about the previous

709
00:27:33,470 --> 00:27:31,980
thing you said because some of my most

710
00:27:36,350 --> 00:27:33,480
recent recent work has been around

711
00:27:38,810 --> 00:27:36,360
something that overlaps with that uh I

712
00:27:41,149 --> 00:27:38,820
mean I've published on Flow and

713
00:27:43,730 --> 00:27:41,159
intuition and we could we could perhaps

714
00:27:45,049 --> 00:27:43,740
talk about that uh but I've been doing

715
00:27:48,529 --> 00:27:45,059
recent work

716
00:27:51,470 --> 00:27:48,539
um I gave it invited talk at uh invited

717
00:27:54,289 --> 00:27:51,480
lecture at Cambridge about the imaginal

718
00:27:57,769 --> 00:27:54,299
um and its relationship to rationality

719
00:28:00,110 --> 00:27:57,779
um but what I mean by rationality and uh

720
00:28:01,909 --> 00:28:00,120
and you know I'm filming my next series

721
00:28:03,830 --> 00:28:01,919
after Socrates and there's a whole

722
00:28:05,810 --> 00:28:03,840
section where I where I'm talking about

723
00:28:08,750 --> 00:28:05,820
the how the neoplatonists try to

724
00:28:11,029 --> 00:28:08,760
integrate the imaginal back into sort of

725
00:28:12,230 --> 00:28:11,039
the depths of philosophy so I don't know

726
00:28:13,789 --> 00:28:12,240
if you're aware of the distinction that

727
00:28:15,470 --> 00:28:13,799
core band makes between the imaginary

728
00:28:18,830 --> 00:28:15,480
and the imaginal

729
00:28:20,169 --> 00:28:18,840
um would it be worthwhile for me to say

730
00:28:22,669 --> 00:28:20,179
what that is

731
00:28:24,470 --> 00:28:22,679
I've got an idea but I could be wrong so

732
00:28:26,990 --> 00:28:24,480
if you like to unpack what you mean

733
00:28:28,669 --> 00:28:27,000
there sure sure

734
00:28:29,630 --> 00:28:28,679
um and then and I'll ground it in a

735
00:28:30,890 --> 00:28:29,640
concrete

736
00:28:32,870 --> 00:28:30,900
um thing

737
00:28:35,169 --> 00:28:32,880
um and then I'll try and show how just

738
00:28:38,149 --> 00:28:35,179
one quick point about how you could not

739
00:28:39,769 --> 00:28:38,159
you know not exhausted but exemplary of

740
00:28:41,570 --> 00:28:39,779
how you could see how it functions

741
00:28:43,730 --> 00:28:41,580
necessarily within what I'm calling

742
00:28:45,110 --> 00:28:43,740
rationality so probably I made a

743
00:28:46,669 --> 00:28:45,120
distinction but the imaginary is when

744
00:28:48,350 --> 00:28:46,679
you picture things in your head and

745
00:28:50,149 --> 00:28:48,360
you're and it's not for the sake of

746
00:28:52,430 --> 00:28:50,159
perception and you're in some sense

747
00:28:55,610 --> 00:28:52,440
escaping from the the limitations of

748
00:28:57,409 --> 00:28:55,620
reality that's the imaginary okay and it

749
00:28:58,250 --> 00:28:57,419
and it sort of maps onto a Tolkien meant

750
00:29:01,430 --> 00:28:58,260
by

751
00:29:03,950 --> 00:29:01,440
um Escapist fantasy and then the

752
00:29:07,250 --> 00:29:03,960
imaginal is Imagination for the sake of

753
00:29:08,810 --> 00:29:07,260
enhancing perception and the the given

754
00:29:10,909 --> 00:29:08,820
deep learning and predictive processing

755
00:29:12,830 --> 00:29:10,919
this now makes tremendous sense right

756
00:29:13,930 --> 00:29:12,840
most of perception is imaginal in this

757
00:29:16,970 --> 00:29:13,940
sense

758
00:29:17,750 --> 00:29:16,980
yeah go ahead so if I may just comment

759
00:29:19,909 --> 00:29:17,760
that

760
00:29:21,950 --> 00:29:19,919
um this is precisely distinction I make

761
00:29:24,950 --> 00:29:21,960
between what I call imagination and

762
00:29:26,269 --> 00:29:24,960
fancy following following words within

763
00:29:27,710 --> 00:29:26,279
Coleridge

764
00:29:30,470 --> 00:29:27,720
um the greatest writers in the English

765
00:29:31,850 --> 00:29:30,480
language on this particular topic and

766
00:29:34,370 --> 00:29:31,860
what they meant was the distinction

767
00:29:36,830 --> 00:29:34,380
exactly between fantasy that takes us

768
00:29:39,370 --> 00:29:36,840
away from reality and Imagination which

769
00:29:42,289 --> 00:29:39,380
is our only chance to enter into reality

770
00:29:44,450 --> 00:29:42,299
right and there's a and there's a

771
00:29:46,610 --> 00:29:44,460
connection I believe

772
00:29:48,830 --> 00:29:46,620
uh I know Coleridge has a huge influence

773
00:29:49,970 --> 00:29:48,840
on Barfield and I believe there's some I

774
00:29:51,889 --> 00:29:49,980
don't know if it's directly between

775
00:29:53,870 --> 00:29:51,899
Barfield and Corbin but I think they

776
00:29:56,149 --> 00:29:53,880
both influenced Hillman and others so

777
00:29:57,789 --> 00:29:56,159
I'm aware there's connections between

778
00:30:01,610 --> 00:29:57,799
those two bodies

779
00:30:03,169 --> 00:30:01,620
no importantly the uh coverage and

780
00:30:05,090 --> 00:30:03,179
coverage wasn't the beginning of this

781
00:30:06,769 --> 00:30:05,100
because he learned a great deal from

782
00:30:08,990 --> 00:30:06,779
shelling

783
00:30:11,029 --> 00:30:09,000
um and more or less lifted some of it

784
00:30:13,370 --> 00:30:11,039
out of shedding

785
00:30:15,769 --> 00:30:13,380
um so it goes down the line from there

786
00:30:17,870 --> 00:30:15,779
to in our time or more recent time

787
00:30:20,090 --> 00:30:17,880
anyway Owen Battlefield and and so on

788
00:30:21,950 --> 00:30:20,100
yeah and I think bortoff is right that

789
00:30:23,990 --> 00:30:21,960
it actually goes back you can see it in

790
00:30:25,570 --> 00:30:24,000
Gutter and when good is trying to get

791
00:30:28,310 --> 00:30:25,580
the herb plant

792
00:30:30,590 --> 00:30:28,320
he's inventing the imaginal act of

793
00:30:32,889 --> 00:30:30,600
perception uh yes it's a very good point

794
00:30:35,210 --> 00:30:32,899
and he also makes distinctions which are

795
00:30:37,130 --> 00:30:35,220
remarkably apt about the difference

796
00:30:38,889 --> 00:30:37,140
between the world provided by the right

797
00:30:42,289 --> 00:30:38,899
and the world provided by the lifetime

798
00:30:44,029 --> 00:30:42,299
incidentally so there we are anyway so

799
00:30:45,889 --> 00:30:44,039
the point I was making and so for

800
00:30:47,810 --> 00:30:45,899
example when I'm teaching but thank you

801
00:30:49,789 --> 00:30:47,820
for that enrichment Kurt you wanted to

802
00:30:51,889 --> 00:30:49,799
say something should I continue or I

803
00:30:53,810 --> 00:30:51,899
want to see if this is correct so the

804
00:30:55,909 --> 00:30:53,820
imaginary versus imaginal the difference

805
00:30:57,289 --> 00:30:55,919
is one of intent the reason why is like

806
00:30:59,210 --> 00:30:57,299
if one plays video games they're

807
00:31:00,590 --> 00:30:59,220
escaping or they can be but yet they

808
00:31:02,870 --> 00:31:00,600
still acquire skills that they can use

809
00:31:04,610 --> 00:31:02,880
in the real world under the right

810
00:31:06,590 --> 00:31:04,620
circumstances right

811
00:31:09,289 --> 00:31:06,600
um but it's also what the phenomenology

812
00:31:11,990 --> 00:31:09,299
of the act so let me let me try and say

813
00:31:14,870 --> 00:31:12,000
so usually the uh the the imaginary

814
00:31:16,789 --> 00:31:14,880
involves picturing in your mind like if

815
00:31:19,010 --> 00:31:16,799
I ask you right now imagine a sailboat

816
00:31:20,330 --> 00:31:19,020
are the sales up or not down and you can

817
00:31:22,730 --> 00:31:20,340
say they're up or down you can tell me

818
00:31:24,769 --> 00:31:22,740
that whereas if a child is imagining

819
00:31:26,630 --> 00:31:24,779
being Zorro they are not picturing

820
00:31:28,909 --> 00:31:26,640
anything they're picking up a stick

821
00:31:31,070 --> 00:31:28,919
tying a blanket around them and they're

822
00:31:32,930 --> 00:31:31,080
taking on the salience Landscaping of

823
00:31:35,149 --> 00:31:32,940
Zorro getting a taste of what it would

824
00:31:37,850 --> 00:31:35,159
be like to have zoro's perspective to

825
00:31:40,549 --> 00:31:37,860
have zoro's identity and see what that

826
00:31:42,769 --> 00:31:40,559
feels like for them in terms of skills

827
00:31:44,810 --> 00:31:42,779
they might want to cultivate identities

828
00:31:47,210 --> 00:31:44,820
and roles they might want to enter into

829
00:31:49,430 --> 00:31:47,220
it's it's it overlaps with developmental

830
00:31:51,649 --> 00:31:49,440
play and so the phenomenology is also

831
00:31:53,389 --> 00:31:51,659
very fundamentally different

832
00:31:55,669 --> 00:31:53,399
um I use it when I'm teaching Tai Chio

833
00:31:58,250 --> 00:31:55,679
when I'm telling people to stand I say I

834
00:32:00,889 --> 00:31:58,260
want you to imagine that you're standing

835
00:32:02,870 --> 00:32:00,899
in a river and from your knees to your

836
00:32:04,850 --> 00:32:02,880
feet are sinking into the mud

837
00:32:06,769 --> 00:32:04,860
so you're kind of get that feeling of

838
00:32:09,110 --> 00:32:06,779
rootedness and then from your knees to

839
00:32:10,789 --> 00:32:09,120
around your navel just like flowing

840
00:32:12,529 --> 00:32:10,799
water because that's how you want that

841
00:32:14,510 --> 00:32:12,539
area of your body and from here up is

842
00:32:16,909 --> 00:32:14,520
like air you want to give it very little

843
00:32:19,730 --> 00:32:16,919
attention and it dissipated and that and

844
00:32:22,070 --> 00:32:19,740
that helps people get into the proper

845
00:32:24,169 --> 00:32:22,080
way of inhabiting their body in order to

846
00:32:26,090 --> 00:32:24,179
optimize it for you know Tai Chi Chuan

847
00:32:28,370 --> 00:32:26,100
perspiring now

848
00:32:32,710 --> 00:32:28,380
that that for example that's one example

849
00:32:36,590 --> 00:32:32,720
of how the imaginal helps uh ratio but

850
00:32:38,090 --> 00:32:36,600
hirschfield and others this just you

851
00:32:39,889 --> 00:32:38,100
give you give you go into people the

852
00:32:41,769 --> 00:32:39,899
academics who are supposed to be the

853
00:32:43,970 --> 00:32:41,779
best right and you give them clear

854
00:32:45,649 --> 00:32:43,980
argument and evidence that they should

855
00:32:47,450 --> 00:32:45,659
start saving for the retirement you make

856
00:32:49,549 --> 00:32:47,460
sure they understand you allow them to

857
00:32:51,289 --> 00:32:49,559
voice any disputes you get agreement

858
00:32:53,149 --> 00:32:51,299
from them all

859
00:32:55,370 --> 00:32:53,159
you come back in six months none of them

860
00:32:57,350 --> 00:32:55,380
are saving for the retirement

861
00:32:58,310 --> 00:32:57,360
then you do the following and of course

862
00:33:00,289 --> 00:32:58,320
you have control groups and everything

863
00:33:02,570 --> 00:33:00,299
I'm just giving the the experimental

864
00:33:06,110 --> 00:33:02,580
group you ask them

865
00:33:08,810 --> 00:33:06,120
to imagine their future self as somebody

866
00:33:10,610 --> 00:33:08,820
that they love and care about

867
00:33:12,950 --> 00:33:10,620
that somebody that they have a

868
00:33:14,810 --> 00:33:12,960
relationship and a responsibility to a

869
00:33:17,090 --> 00:33:14,820
member of their family

870
00:33:19,070 --> 00:33:17,100
you're coming back in six months and

871
00:33:21,470 --> 00:33:19,080
you'll find two things they are now

872
00:33:24,830 --> 00:33:21,480
saving and the people that were vividly

873
00:33:28,250 --> 00:33:24,840
imagined that future self were able to

874
00:33:30,470 --> 00:33:28,260
save even more and you say so what the

875
00:33:32,930 --> 00:33:30,480
ability to Aspire to your future self

876
00:33:35,690 --> 00:33:32,940
and this is Agnes calart's argument is

877
00:33:38,090 --> 00:33:35,700
Central to rationality rationality is

878
00:33:40,610 --> 00:33:38,100
ultimately about self-correcting it's

879
00:33:43,250 --> 00:33:40,620
about aspiring to get to become more

880
00:33:46,009 --> 00:33:43,260
rational wiser than you are and

881
00:33:48,889 --> 00:33:46,019
therefore the ability to properly Aspire

882
00:33:50,870 --> 00:33:48,899
is dependent on the imaginal yet it is

883
00:33:54,169 --> 00:33:50,880
Central to rationality and therefore

884
00:33:56,269 --> 00:33:54,179
they are inseparably bound together this

885
00:33:57,409 --> 00:33:56,279
is something I find Plato deeply deeply

886
00:33:59,870 --> 00:33:57,419
understood because he'll give an

887
00:34:01,370 --> 00:33:59,880
argument and then he'll give the and

888
00:34:04,130 --> 00:34:01,380
that he'll give the parable of the cave

889
00:34:07,130 --> 00:34:04,140
and he'll put the two side by side so

890
00:34:09,710 --> 00:34:07,140
your what right the imaginal and the

891
00:34:12,470 --> 00:34:09,720
rational are interwoven together and

892
00:34:15,829 --> 00:34:12,480
again said we have we have now set them

893
00:34:18,349 --> 00:34:15,839
into this weird opposition which doesn't

894
00:34:19,970 --> 00:34:18,359
actually make very much sense I suppose

895
00:34:23,329 --> 00:34:19,980
it could be because of the prevalence of

896
00:34:26,570 --> 00:34:23,339
entertainment in which uh the imaginary

897
00:34:30,050 --> 00:34:26,580
or the fanciful is taking priority over

898
00:34:32,389 --> 00:34:30,060
places in which people properly enact

899
00:34:33,770 --> 00:34:32,399
the imaginal and I propose to you that

900
00:34:36,109 --> 00:34:33,780
those places traditionally have been

901
00:34:38,329 --> 00:34:36,119
ritual the serious play of the imaginal

902
00:34:40,369 --> 00:34:38,339
in order to enhance people's sense of

903
00:34:43,990 --> 00:34:40,379
connectedness especially to their future

904
00:34:48,649 --> 00:34:46,970
of course there's an enormous amount

905
00:34:52,730 --> 00:34:48,659
that could be said about the imagination

906
00:34:55,129 --> 00:34:52,740
and its qualities and how it enables us

907
00:34:58,370 --> 00:34:55,139
to feel our way into the being of

908
00:34:59,930 --> 00:34:58,380
something other whereas fantasy Builds

909
00:35:01,910 --> 00:34:59,940
on the things that we already know

910
00:35:04,790 --> 00:35:01,920
putting them together yes putting them

911
00:35:07,070 --> 00:35:04,800
together in a new sort of way and and I

912
00:35:10,069 --> 00:35:07,080
use the analogy of those children's

913
00:35:13,250 --> 00:35:10,079
books in which there are animals and the

914
00:35:15,109 --> 00:35:13,260
pages are divided into three from top to

915
00:35:17,630 --> 00:35:15,119
bottom and you can turn over as many as

916
00:35:19,730 --> 00:35:17,640
you want of each part and you get the

917
00:35:22,550 --> 00:35:19,740
head of a goat and the body of a seal

918
00:35:24,349 --> 00:35:22,560
and the tale of a lion or something and

919
00:35:25,849 --> 00:35:24,359
and that's that's fantasy that's just

920
00:35:28,609 --> 00:35:25,859
putting together stuff that doesn't

921
00:35:31,010 --> 00:35:28,619
really exercise our imagination but

922
00:35:32,569 --> 00:35:31,020
words with famously with

923
00:35:35,810 --> 00:35:32,579
thought

924
00:35:37,550 --> 00:35:35,820
um in a way foolish risk being the

925
00:35:39,349 --> 00:35:37,560
person Wittgenstein said we all should

926
00:35:41,750 --> 00:35:39,359
be here For Heaven's Sake don't stop

927
00:35:43,609 --> 00:35:41,760
being foolish what he did was he looked

928
00:35:45,170 --> 00:35:43,619
at a very

929
00:35:47,030 --> 00:35:45,180
um Bleak looking

930
00:35:50,030 --> 00:35:47,040
Cliff or Rock

931
00:35:54,349 --> 00:35:50,040
and in his contemplation of it it became

932
00:35:56,870 --> 00:35:54,359
something more real than yes when we

933
00:35:58,609 --> 00:35:56,880
just look it's easy for us now at this

934
00:36:01,069 --> 00:35:58,619
stage in life and this is what words was

935
00:36:04,250 --> 00:36:01,079
wrote about in his own on informations

936
00:36:06,170 --> 00:36:04,260
of immortality that as we grow up we

937
00:36:08,270 --> 00:36:06,180
cease to be in immediate contact with

938
00:36:10,250 --> 00:36:08,280
things because we're in contact of our

939
00:36:12,470 --> 00:36:10,260
images of those things we have a

940
00:36:14,630 --> 00:36:12,480
category we go to a picturesque scene

941
00:36:16,790 --> 00:36:14,640
and instead of being completely blown

942
00:36:18,849 --> 00:36:16,800
away by the beauty of it we're already

943
00:36:21,290 --> 00:36:18,859
categorizing a picturesque scene

944
00:36:24,290 --> 00:36:21,300
mountains that's right a lake and so on

945
00:36:27,770 --> 00:36:24,300
and it's this process of getting beyond

946
00:36:30,109 --> 00:36:27,780
words and beginning Beyond a categorical

947
00:36:34,490 --> 00:36:30,119
thought towards the very experience that

948
00:36:40,130 --> 00:36:36,589
so I

949
00:36:41,930 --> 00:36:40,140
no I think that's right and for me

950
00:36:44,270 --> 00:36:41,940
um

951
00:36:47,569 --> 00:36:44,280
I'm not here to criticize woodsworth or

952
00:36:49,490 --> 00:36:47,579
or my favorite uh poet rilka who does

953
00:36:51,349 --> 00:36:49,500
something very similar uh a favorite

954
00:36:55,730 --> 00:36:51,359
person of mine as well by the way yes

955
00:36:59,030 --> 00:36:55,740
yeah yeah uh and uh but I guess for me

956
00:37:01,609 --> 00:36:59,040
part of the question becomes uh when I'm

957
00:37:03,670 --> 00:37:01,619
trying because I I not only I'm a

958
00:37:05,630 --> 00:37:03,680
scientist I'm also a person who's

959
00:37:08,150 --> 00:37:05,640
involved with a lot of these emerging

960
00:37:09,650 --> 00:37:08,160
communities in which people are trying

961
00:37:11,210 --> 00:37:09,660
um individually and collectively to

962
00:37:12,770 --> 00:37:11,220
build ecologies of practices for

963
00:37:14,210 --> 00:37:12,780
responding to the meeting crisis and

964
00:37:15,770 --> 00:37:14,220
doing it a good faith I'm not talking

965
00:37:16,910 --> 00:37:15,780
about the charlatans I'm not talking

966
00:37:18,650 --> 00:37:16,920
about the exploiters I'm not talking

967
00:37:21,770 --> 00:37:18,660
about the gurus I'm talking about people

968
00:37:23,950 --> 00:37:21,780
like Ray Kelly and uh and others uh and

969
00:37:26,630 --> 00:37:23,960
you know and I that recently with them

970
00:37:31,089 --> 00:37:26,640
in Vermont uh we're trying to organize

971
00:37:36,490 --> 00:37:33,950
why I bring that up is to me that the

972
00:37:40,010 --> 00:37:36,500
question becomes

973
00:37:43,550 --> 00:37:40,020
how do we

974
00:37:46,190 --> 00:37:43,560
reverse engineer and recommend practices

975
00:37:48,829 --> 00:37:46,200
for people individually and collectively

976
00:37:52,550 --> 00:37:48,839
such that this is recoverable to them

977
00:37:54,470 --> 00:37:52,560
not only in thought but in

978
00:37:56,930 --> 00:37:54,480
um actual

979
00:37:59,470 --> 00:37:56,940
conscious engagement with themselves

980
00:38:02,870 --> 00:37:59,480
other people in the world

981
00:38:05,390 --> 00:38:02,880
yeah okay great I'll start I'll quick go

982
00:38:07,370 --> 00:38:05,400
no no it's just I I've got a couple of

983
00:38:10,310 --> 00:38:07,380
thoughts about that

984
00:38:12,710 --> 00:38:10,320
um the first is that I don't think that

985
00:38:15,829 --> 00:38:12,720
practices in themselves will ever

986
00:38:19,190 --> 00:38:15,839
achieve what needs to happen because

987
00:38:20,890 --> 00:38:19,200
they can still go on without the mind

988
00:38:23,030 --> 00:38:20,900
and heart of the person having

989
00:38:26,810 --> 00:38:23,040
fundamentally shifted

990
00:38:30,890 --> 00:38:26,820
and in a way the reason the religions

991
00:38:33,230 --> 00:38:30,900
have rituals and practices is that if

992
00:38:35,630 --> 00:38:33,240
you think your way into feeling those

993
00:38:37,370 --> 00:38:35,640
things eventually eventually and live

994
00:38:39,710 --> 00:38:37,380
them in your life then things will begin

995
00:38:42,230 --> 00:38:39,720
to change but I'm worried that

996
00:38:44,750 --> 00:38:42,240
recommending practices to people like if

997
00:38:47,569 --> 00:38:44,760
you do so much meditation per day and if

998
00:38:49,010 --> 00:38:47,579
you you know spend so long in nature and

999
00:38:50,690 --> 00:38:49,020
you spend so long listening to music

1000
00:38:53,329 --> 00:38:50,700
there's nothing wrong with any of these

1001
00:38:55,190 --> 00:38:53,339
things but the trouble is that as

1002
00:38:58,010 --> 00:38:55,200
Einstein said we can't get out of the

1003
00:38:59,690 --> 00:38:58,020
particular mess we've produced with the

1004
00:39:01,790 --> 00:38:59,700
same thinking that got us into it in the

1005
00:39:04,430 --> 00:39:01,800
first place and so we need to shift

1006
00:39:09,230 --> 00:39:04,440
entirely what we

1007
00:39:11,750 --> 00:39:09,240
um meaning by meaning and another point

1008
00:39:13,190 --> 00:39:11,760
that occurs to me is these these people

1009
00:39:16,250 --> 00:39:13,200
that you mentioned that are not

1010
00:39:19,310 --> 00:39:16,260
charlatans and have something wise to

1011
00:39:22,670 --> 00:39:19,320
say I think it's an enormous load to

1012
00:39:25,670 --> 00:39:22,680
place on any one individual that their

1013
00:39:30,650 --> 00:39:25,680
ideas their practices their set of

1014
00:39:33,589 --> 00:39:30,660
whatever it is can really reach wisdom

1015
00:39:36,609 --> 00:39:33,599
in the way that

1016
00:39:40,849 --> 00:39:36,619
a tradition that has

1017
00:39:44,089 --> 00:39:40,859
absorbed and evolved with and changed in

1018
00:39:46,849 --> 00:39:44,099
the process ideas of many many people

1019
00:39:49,790 --> 00:39:46,859
wise people who live before us that is

1020
00:39:52,609 --> 00:39:49,800
more likely in the end to distill wisdom

1021
00:39:54,710 --> 00:39:52,619
which is why I think that I don't think

1022
00:39:57,410 --> 00:39:54,720
it's necessarily very easy to do that's

1023
00:39:59,089 --> 00:39:57,420
not impossible but to do it without some

1024
00:40:02,150 --> 00:39:59,099
sort of a tradition it doesn't have to

1025
00:40:04,250 --> 00:40:02,160
be Christianity of course it might be

1026
00:40:07,069 --> 00:40:04,260
um none of the monotheistic religions

1027
00:40:08,750 --> 00:40:07,079
good as they are it might be Daoism or

1028
00:40:10,730 --> 00:40:08,760
Buddhism and so on with their history

1029
00:40:12,190 --> 00:40:10,740
with their teachings with their Parables

1030
00:40:14,329 --> 00:40:12,200
with their practice

1031
00:40:16,849 --> 00:40:14,339
it's just it's I'm a little more

1032
00:40:19,370 --> 00:40:16,859
cautious about the idea that either you

1033
00:40:21,530 --> 00:40:19,380
or I however break we are can sort of

1034
00:40:23,270 --> 00:40:21,540
really take it upon ourselves to

1035
00:40:25,069 --> 00:40:23,280
recommend to people how they can acquire

1036
00:40:26,990 --> 00:40:25,079
wisdom in fact one of the points about

1037
00:40:29,150 --> 00:40:27,000
wisdom is it can't be acquired according

1038
00:40:30,950 --> 00:40:29,160
to any process

1039
00:40:32,870 --> 00:40:30,960
okay this sounds like a great point of

1040
00:40:34,010 --> 00:40:32,880
disagreement as much as there are

1041
00:40:35,630 --> 00:40:34,020
agreements because I know you have

1042
00:40:37,310 --> 00:40:35,640
non-theism which sounds like well why

1043
00:40:38,810 --> 00:40:37,320
don't you explain what non-theism is or

1044
00:40:40,130 --> 00:40:38,820
if you want to respond to that John well

1045
00:40:42,470 --> 00:40:40,140
I do want to respond to it first of all

1046
00:40:45,770 --> 00:40:42,480
I I wasn't proposing practices in place

1047
00:40:47,150 --> 00:40:45,780
of also fundamental philosophy I was

1048
00:40:50,810 --> 00:40:47,160
practicing I was proposing something

1049
00:40:52,910 --> 00:40:50,820
very much like what you see in stoicism

1050
00:40:54,829 --> 00:40:52,920
um in which or in Buddhism or in

1051
00:40:57,589 --> 00:40:54,839
neoplatanism you have both a fundamental

1052
00:40:58,970 --> 00:40:57,599
philosophy and a set of practices that

1053
00:41:01,069 --> 00:40:58,980
are integrated together

1054
00:41:03,829 --> 00:41:01,079
um and I also think whatever that

1055
00:41:05,810 --> 00:41:03,839
integration is also has to be in deep

1056
00:41:08,569 --> 00:41:05,820
and good faith dialogue with science

1057
00:41:10,190 --> 00:41:08,579
especially uh the the cognitive Sciences

1058
00:41:12,470 --> 00:41:10,200
because those are what I would call

1059
00:41:14,270 --> 00:41:12,480
cognitive science because those are the

1060
00:41:15,950 --> 00:41:14,280
ones directed towards helping us

1061
00:41:17,270 --> 00:41:15,960
understand the very processes of meaning

1062
00:41:19,310 --> 00:41:17,280
making

1063
00:41:22,250 --> 00:41:19,320
um so that's the first part of the

1064
00:41:24,170 --> 00:41:22,260
response I I think and that's exactly

1065
00:41:25,329 --> 00:41:24,180
what I'm trying to offer I'm trying and

1066
00:41:27,829 --> 00:41:25,339
this is how

1067
00:41:30,050 --> 00:41:27,839
a lot of these people are taking this

1068
00:41:32,750 --> 00:41:30,060
taking these practices out they're not

1069
00:41:35,510 --> 00:41:32,760
taking them up as just Panacea practices

1070
00:41:37,550 --> 00:41:35,520
they're taking it up as oh no no no we

1071
00:41:41,270 --> 00:41:37,560
need to be doing uh we need to be doing

1072
00:41:43,010 --> 00:41:41,280
a lot of attentional sensory motor a lot

1073
00:41:45,829 --> 00:41:43,020
of stuff and a lot of philosophical

1074
00:41:47,930 --> 00:41:45,839
reflection and a lot of dialogue if

1075
00:41:49,790 --> 00:41:47,940
we're going to get something and

1076
00:41:52,069 --> 00:41:49,800
properly

1077
00:41:54,589 --> 00:41:52,079
um enter into dialogue with the existing

1078
00:41:57,170 --> 00:41:54,599
wisdom Traditions so that's part of what

1079
00:41:59,990 --> 00:41:57,180
I meant by uh how these communities are

1080
00:42:01,370 --> 00:42:00,000
working uh for example I was at uh this

1081
00:42:03,410 --> 00:42:01,380
conference was being held at the maple

1082
00:42:05,870 --> 00:42:03,420
monastic Academy which comes out of the

1083
00:42:08,450 --> 00:42:05,880
Zen tradition is deeply influenced by it

1084
00:42:10,310 --> 00:42:08,460
but wants to talk to uh some of the you

1085
00:42:12,349 --> 00:42:10,320
know some of these emerging uh

1086
00:42:13,670 --> 00:42:12,359
communities that have come out of out of

1087
00:42:15,109 --> 00:42:13,680
other traditions

1088
00:42:16,609 --> 00:42:15,119
secondly

1089
00:42:21,730 --> 00:42:16,619
um

1090
00:42:26,450 --> 00:42:21,740
uh I do think uh and we I do think that

1091
00:42:28,250 --> 00:42:26,460
we are in a place that might be like the

1092
00:42:31,490 --> 00:42:28,260
place where some of these

1093
00:42:34,370 --> 00:42:31,500
and this is a this is this is uh a

1094
00:42:36,470 --> 00:42:34,380
somewhat Preposterous proposal uh but

1095
00:42:40,250 --> 00:42:36,480
it's a historical I think we're in a

1096
00:42:42,230 --> 00:42:40,260
Kairos I think we're at a pivot point uh

1097
00:42:44,150 --> 00:42:42,240
in our civilization because I think the

1098
00:42:47,930 --> 00:42:44,160
meaning crisis

1099
00:42:51,170 --> 00:42:47,940
um weakens us disables us in the face of

1100
00:42:52,910 --> 00:42:51,180
addressing the meta crisis uh in in many

1101
00:42:55,010 --> 00:42:52,920
powerful ways

1102
00:42:57,170 --> 00:42:55,020
um and and then the meta crisis feeds

1103
00:42:58,970 --> 00:42:57,180
back and makes the world seem Bleak and

1104
00:43:01,130 --> 00:42:58,980
in ahospitable for people wrestling with

1105
00:43:03,170 --> 00:43:01,140
meaning so I think they're interlocked

1106
00:43:05,510 --> 00:43:03,180
and so I think we're in a Kairos because

1107
00:43:07,609 --> 00:43:05,520
I do think actress is real and

1108
00:43:09,710 --> 00:43:07,619
accelerating and I do think the capacity

1109
00:43:11,210 --> 00:43:09,720
for social media to misdirect us is real

1110
00:43:14,930 --> 00:43:11,220
and accelerating

1111
00:43:16,849 --> 00:43:14,940
so my point is when we're in a Kairos we

1112
00:43:19,550 --> 00:43:16,859
may need to give birth to something new

1113
00:43:22,370 --> 00:43:19,560
all of these other great traditions did

1114
00:43:25,190 --> 00:43:22,380
start somewhere you know Socrates of the

1115
00:43:26,630 --> 00:43:25,200
neoplatonic tradition Jesus and the

1116
00:43:29,390 --> 00:43:26,640
Christian tradition Muhammad and the

1117
00:43:32,030 --> 00:43:29,400
Islamic tradition I'm not claiming to be

1118
00:43:34,490 --> 00:43:32,040
any of these speakers and I I will not

1119
00:43:36,530 --> 00:43:34,500
accept any any attempt uh job

1120
00:43:39,050 --> 00:43:36,540
description of that for me what do you

1121
00:43:41,390 --> 00:43:39,060
do it but but I know and nor do I think

1122
00:43:44,450 --> 00:43:41,400
that any of these I know Ray Ferry uh

1123
00:43:46,670 --> 00:43:44,460
for example rape rape as part of his

1124
00:43:49,670 --> 00:43:46,680
practice make sure that he steps out of

1125
00:43:51,290 --> 00:43:49,680
the leadership role other people he also

1126
00:43:53,270 --> 00:43:51,300
does not see him none none of the people

1127
00:43:55,790 --> 00:43:53,280
are talking to see themselves what they

1128
00:43:59,329 --> 00:43:55,800
do think is that something is emerging

1129
00:44:02,450 --> 00:43:59,339
right now and because of the urgency of

1130
00:44:05,770 --> 00:44:02,460
the situation uh we should

1131
00:44:09,410 --> 00:44:05,780
try to interact with it as best we can

1132
00:44:12,470 --> 00:44:09,420
uh to try and see if we can steer it to

1133
00:44:15,050 --> 00:44:12,480
becoming something that is a viable

1134
00:44:18,170 --> 00:44:15,060
response for the growing demographic

1135
00:44:20,870 --> 00:44:18,180
group of people who cannot find the

1136
00:44:22,370 --> 00:44:20,880
Legacy religions a proper home for the

1137
00:44:24,530 --> 00:44:22,380
cultivation of wisdom so that would be

1138
00:44:26,030 --> 00:44:24,540
my response

1139
00:44:27,890 --> 00:44:26,040
yes

1140
00:44:28,910 --> 00:44:27,900
but I I wouldn't really disagree with

1141
00:44:31,849 --> 00:44:28,920
that and thank you for your

1142
00:44:34,490 --> 00:44:31,859
clarification right um which really just

1143
00:44:37,670 --> 00:44:34,500
confirms and what I hoped that you might

1144
00:44:39,530 --> 00:44:37,680
say about because it was really more a

1145
00:44:41,630 --> 00:44:39,540
clarification because I think it's easy

1146
00:44:43,970 --> 00:44:41,640
for people to think I'm often asked you

1147
00:44:45,589 --> 00:44:43,980
know after lecturing so what do we do

1148
00:44:48,589 --> 00:44:45,599
right away you know what do we do now

1149
00:44:51,290 --> 00:44:48,599
yes and yeah and it's like the left

1150
00:44:52,970 --> 00:44:51,300
hemisphere's job is to solve an

1151
00:44:54,829 --> 00:44:52,980
immediate problem and it wants eight

1152
00:44:55,730 --> 00:44:54,839
bullet points and if we can do all of

1153
00:44:58,910 --> 00:44:55,740
those

1154
00:45:01,430 --> 00:44:58,920
phew we can carry on business as usual

1155
00:45:04,069 --> 00:45:01,440
but my message is we cannot conceivably

1156
00:45:06,530 --> 00:45:04,079
carry on business as usual and I'm not

1157
00:45:09,230 --> 00:45:06,540
talking about anything that can be

1158
00:45:12,050 --> 00:45:09,240
um summed up as a series of um steps

1159
00:45:13,550 --> 00:45:12,060
that we should take there are steps that

1160
00:45:16,430 --> 00:45:13,560
we should take that are very practical

1161
00:45:18,950 --> 00:45:16,440
we must stop poisoning the oceans we

1162
00:45:20,210 --> 00:45:18,960
must stop destroying the forest we must

1163
00:45:22,190 --> 00:45:20,220
stop

1164
00:45:24,650 --> 00:45:22,200
um extinguishing the ways of life of

1165
00:45:25,970 --> 00:45:24,660
indigenous peoples we there's many many

1166
00:45:28,670 --> 00:45:25,980
things we should do we should stop

1167
00:45:30,770 --> 00:45:28,680
basically attacking and destroying all

1168
00:45:32,930 --> 00:45:30,780
that's best actually out of our own

1169
00:45:35,990 --> 00:45:32,940
civilization there are many things that

1170
00:45:37,849 --> 00:45:36,000
we we need to do rather urgently but

1171
00:45:40,609 --> 00:45:37,859
that's not really what I'm saying I'm

1172
00:45:43,190 --> 00:45:40,619
saying we need to think about the

1173
00:45:45,370 --> 00:45:43,200
business of thinking and what we mean by

1174
00:45:47,870 --> 00:45:45,380
meaning and that these need to be

1175
00:45:50,230 --> 00:45:47,880
reconceived and the way that I like to

1176
00:45:54,050 --> 00:45:50,240
reconceive them is by

1177
00:45:56,030 --> 00:45:54,060
unfailing over a long stretches we both

1178
00:45:59,569 --> 00:45:56,040
acknowledge and I apologize for the

1179
00:46:02,329 --> 00:45:59,579
length of what I write but over a long

1180
00:46:04,370 --> 00:46:02,339
stretch but but yeah right you're a good

1181
00:46:06,290 --> 00:46:04,380
writer so I mean I I don't I don't want

1182
00:46:08,750 --> 00:46:06,300
people I don't want people to be put off

1183
00:46:10,550 --> 00:46:08,760
by that I I mean so I just wanted to

1184
00:46:12,950 --> 00:46:10,560
sorry for interrupting but I don't I

1185
00:46:15,770 --> 00:46:12,960
know I I we both did yeah it's a long

1186
00:46:17,510 --> 00:46:15,780
book but you're a good writer uh so I

1187
00:46:19,490 --> 00:46:17,520
don't yeah I don't want people to be put

1188
00:46:22,450 --> 00:46:19,500
off by that anytime you want to

1189
00:46:25,910 --> 00:46:22,460
interject a compliment of course

1190
00:46:27,890 --> 00:46:25,920
but really what I'm saying is that I

1191
00:46:29,329 --> 00:46:27,900
think it's a question of at the

1192
00:46:31,190 --> 00:46:29,339
beginning of the book I say in a very

1193
00:46:33,950 --> 00:46:31,200
short note to the reader which is only a

1194
00:46:35,630 --> 00:46:33,960
page and a half long I I think of it as

1195
00:46:37,130 --> 00:46:35,640
taking somebody on a journey from which

1196
00:46:39,829 --> 00:46:37,140
they can see something from different

1197
00:46:43,210 --> 00:46:39,839
perspectives and that that will in

1198
00:46:46,550 --> 00:46:43,220
itself bring about a kind of aha moment

1199
00:46:48,470 --> 00:46:46,560
wow this is how it looks from here

1200
00:46:50,030 --> 00:46:48,480
and it's not because I've explained

1201
00:46:52,490 --> 00:46:50,040
something and asked you to ascend to a

1202
00:46:55,970 --> 00:46:52,500
proposition it's because I have

1203
00:46:58,609 --> 00:46:55,980
suggested I have indicated I've taken

1204
00:47:00,890 --> 00:46:58,619
places I'm going to go over in a vast

1205
00:47:03,890 --> 00:47:00,900
array of things from literature from art

1206
00:47:06,290 --> 00:47:03,900
from Philosophy from you know all the

1207
00:47:08,030 --> 00:47:06,300
rest but I think it's that process of

1208
00:47:11,390 --> 00:47:08,040
actually guiding people towards a

1209
00:47:14,030 --> 00:47:11,400
different position that I think is key

1210
00:47:15,290 --> 00:47:14,040
I agree and for me that's the that's

1211
00:47:17,270 --> 00:47:15,300
where we're getting into perspectival

1212
00:47:19,150 --> 00:47:17,280
and participatory knowing as opposed to

1213
00:47:22,370 --> 00:47:19,160
propositional ascent

1214
00:47:24,170 --> 00:47:22,380
and I and thank you for agreeing with my

1215
00:47:26,390 --> 00:47:24,180
clarification I just want to uh

1216
00:47:29,450 --> 00:47:26,400
reciprocate I definitely did not mean a

1217
00:47:32,450 --> 00:47:29,460
bullet point I think DC Schindler he he

1218
00:47:34,069 --> 00:47:32,460
indicates that that is one of the uh in

1219
00:47:35,390 --> 00:47:34,079
his uh Plato's critique of Imperial

1220
00:47:37,790 --> 00:47:35,400
reason he indicates that's one of the

1221
00:47:40,309 --> 00:47:37,800
markers of Mythology the hatred of the

1222
00:47:43,010 --> 00:47:40,319
logos which is right a kind of

1223
00:47:45,410 --> 00:47:43,020
intellectual impatience uh a profound

1224
00:47:46,910 --> 00:47:45,420
kind of no I'm talking about that the

1225
00:47:50,630 --> 00:47:46,920
only thing that will resolve the meaning

1226
00:47:52,609 --> 00:47:50,640
crisis is a way of life the way

1227
00:47:55,609 --> 00:47:52,619
kirkegaard and beckenstein and soccer

1228
00:47:59,170 --> 00:47:55,619
exactly meant it to be but the problem

1229
00:48:00,950 --> 00:47:59,180
I'm saying is uh where do people go

1230
00:48:02,589 --> 00:48:00,960
to get

1231
00:48:06,849 --> 00:48:02,599
you know

1232
00:48:10,849 --> 00:48:06,859
the sets of practices Transformations

1233
00:48:12,950 --> 00:48:10,859
and community relations that afford them

1234
00:48:15,230 --> 00:48:12,960
entering into a new way of life that's

1235
00:48:17,329 --> 00:48:15,240
for me the pressing question uh and

1236
00:48:20,150 --> 00:48:17,339
that's what I'm trying to and as I see

1237
00:48:23,030 --> 00:48:20,160
people trying to commit create ways of

1238
00:48:24,410 --> 00:48:23,040
life within communities and a

1239
00:48:26,710 --> 00:48:24,420
reconciliation with the scientific

1240
00:48:29,450 --> 00:48:26,720
worldview such that they can be properly

1241
00:48:31,130 --> 00:48:29,460
cosmically homed and that's that's what

1242
00:48:34,370 --> 00:48:31,140
grabs my interest that's what I want to

1243
00:48:38,109 --> 00:48:34,380
try and support yes and I if I may I'd

1244
00:48:41,390 --> 00:48:38,119
like to emphasize the idea of a way

1245
00:48:44,690 --> 00:48:41,400
as never completed and always being

1246
00:48:46,630 --> 00:48:44,700
newly undertaken so it is a it's a

1247
00:48:49,430 --> 00:48:46,640
process I I I

1248
00:48:52,430 --> 00:48:49,440
happen to believe that all the things we

1249
00:48:54,290 --> 00:48:52,440
call things are in fact in process and

1250
00:48:58,069 --> 00:48:54,300
that it's therefore very important to

1251
00:48:59,990 --> 00:48:58,079
see that process because when we talk

1252
00:49:02,150 --> 00:49:00,000
about a way and needing a way and of

1253
00:49:03,890 --> 00:49:02,160
course Daoism is named after that way

1254
00:49:05,809 --> 00:49:03,900
which is a practice that needs to be

1255
00:49:08,270 --> 00:49:05,819
lived and when

1256
00:49:10,490 --> 00:49:08,280
um Christ said I am the way the truth

1257
00:49:12,410 --> 00:49:10,500
and the life he didn't mean once you

1258
00:49:16,970 --> 00:49:12,420
believe in me you got it he meant there

1259
00:49:19,370 --> 00:49:16,980
is a way yes you can enter into through

1260
00:49:21,290 --> 00:49:19,380
so we believe in what he was teaching

1261
00:49:24,130 --> 00:49:21,300
and in what he showed by his example

1262
00:49:27,109 --> 00:49:24,140
that would take one where one wishes to

1263
00:49:28,849 --> 00:49:27,119
go I deeply agree with that so much so

1264
00:49:31,430 --> 00:49:28,859
that I have said please carve on my

1265
00:49:34,370 --> 00:49:31,440
Tombstone neither Nostalgia nor Utopia I

1266
00:49:37,670 --> 00:49:34,380
do not think uh anything that claims to

1267
00:49:39,290 --> 00:49:37,680
have a total grip and a resolution in

1268
00:49:41,870 --> 00:49:39,300
fact and perhaps this will slide into

1269
00:49:45,290 --> 00:49:41,880
the topic I think we need to think of

1270
00:49:48,109 --> 00:49:45,300
the sacred as an inexhaustible source of

1271
00:49:50,349 --> 00:49:48,119
intelligibility rather than as some

1272
00:49:53,030 --> 00:49:50,359
state of perfection

1273
00:49:54,349 --> 00:49:53,040
you know I I didn't think we'd find much

1274
00:49:56,390 --> 00:49:54,359
to discuss there because we're

1275
00:49:59,329 --> 00:49:56,400
completely in agreement about that I

1276
00:50:00,890 --> 00:49:59,339
just wanted to say for me uh that's

1277
00:50:04,309 --> 00:50:00,900
exact that's exactly what I see

1278
00:50:06,050 --> 00:50:04,319
exemplified I mean that you know you

1279
00:50:07,670 --> 00:50:06,060
know people talk about the Socratic

1280
00:50:09,890 --> 00:50:07,680
method there's no such thing there is a

1281
00:50:14,210 --> 00:50:09,900
Socratic way there's a Socratic way of

1282
00:50:15,829 --> 00:50:14,220
life and and Socrates was so uh faithful

1283
00:50:18,650 --> 00:50:15,839
to that way of life that he was willing

1284
00:50:21,050 --> 00:50:18,660
to die for it but he does he undermines

1285
00:50:23,690 --> 00:50:21,060
all attempts to replace what he's doing

1286
00:50:26,630 --> 00:50:23,700
uh with a method or any sort of

1287
00:50:30,410 --> 00:50:26,640
totalizing vision and so for me and

1288
00:50:31,910 --> 00:50:30,420
again I practice uh uh like I don't

1289
00:50:35,150 --> 00:50:31,920
consider myself a Taoist but I've been

1290
00:50:38,329 --> 00:50:35,160
practicing Tai teach one and qikang uh

1291
00:50:40,970 --> 00:50:38,339
or for close to three decades and and

1292
00:50:42,950 --> 00:50:40,980
towards a point I was making earlier I I

1293
00:50:44,329 --> 00:50:42,960
don't let me say it this way I don't

1294
00:50:46,430 --> 00:50:44,339
think you should do tai chi Schwan

1295
00:50:47,990 --> 00:50:46,440
without ruling the Tate Chan but I also

1296
00:50:50,690 --> 00:50:48,000
think you shouldn't do telltheh read the

1297
00:50:52,730 --> 00:50:50,700
touth HM without doing patience one uh

1298
00:50:55,130 --> 00:50:52,740
because for me that's like reading the

1299
00:50:57,349 --> 00:50:55,140
Kama Sutra and never making love you you

1300
00:51:00,710 --> 00:50:57,359
really are you really aren't getting and

1301
00:51:03,109 --> 00:51:00,720
putting the two together and so

1302
00:51:05,270 --> 00:51:03,119
I I'm interested then if you agree with

1303
00:51:08,210 --> 00:51:05,280
me that

1304
00:51:09,430 --> 00:51:08,220
and by the way having a process view of

1305
00:51:11,870 --> 00:51:09,440
reality

1306
00:51:14,390 --> 00:51:11,880
you'd probably also influenced by

1307
00:51:15,430 --> 00:51:14,400
Whitehead as as I am

1308
00:51:19,730 --> 00:51:15,440
um

1309
00:51:22,670 --> 00:51:19,740
and right and and the idea that all all

1310
00:51:24,829 --> 00:51:22,680
that part of what is needed

1311
00:51:27,670 --> 00:51:24,839
and this is part of What's

1312
00:51:31,010 --> 00:51:27,680
um the the third wave scholarship around

1313
00:51:33,049 --> 00:51:31,020
uh neoplatonism and things like that but

1314
00:51:35,030 --> 00:51:33,059
is to

1315
00:51:37,849 --> 00:51:35,040
get out of a thingy way of thinking

1316
00:51:39,290 --> 00:51:37,859
absolutely well that's that's why my

1317
00:51:41,990 --> 00:51:39,300
latest book is called the matter with

1318
00:51:44,210 --> 00:51:42,000
things it's a pound on a whole range of

1319
00:51:45,829 --> 00:51:44,220
things to do with uh so I didn't get I

1320
00:51:48,109 --> 00:51:45,839
didn't get that second part I got the

1321
00:51:49,670 --> 00:51:48,119
matter a obsession with matter and our

1322
00:51:52,549 --> 00:51:49,680
obsession with things and the matter

1323
00:51:55,309 --> 00:51:52,559
with things now so it tries to bring

1324
00:51:57,710 --> 00:51:55,319
together a number of elements but I I

1325
00:52:00,309 --> 00:51:57,720
just wanted to also throw it into the

1326
00:52:03,589 --> 00:52:00,319
mix and see if you agree with me here

1327
00:52:07,670 --> 00:52:03,599
that a lot of what we've been talking

1328
00:52:10,490 --> 00:52:07,680
about is predicated typically for the

1329
00:52:13,609 --> 00:52:10,500
Western mind on the idea that there are

1330
00:52:16,210 --> 00:52:13,619
things good things that we can do

1331
00:52:18,890 --> 00:52:16,220
and I I

1332
00:52:22,730 --> 00:52:18,900
always think that we need to be careful

1333
00:52:24,829 --> 00:52:22,740
of thinking that it's doing that causes

1334
00:52:28,609 --> 00:52:24,839
change it may be

1335
00:52:31,069 --> 00:52:28,619
receiving and yes yes and there is

1336
00:52:33,770 --> 00:52:31,079
something that I choose the term active

1337
00:52:36,890 --> 00:52:33,780
passivity which is not just a kind of

1338
00:52:40,490 --> 00:52:36,900
let it all hang out thing but actually a

1339
00:52:41,990 --> 00:52:40,500
disciplined attention to the world

1340
00:52:44,150 --> 00:52:42,000
um I always come back to attention

1341
00:52:46,309 --> 00:52:44,160
because I believe it's a moral act and

1342
00:52:48,770 --> 00:52:46,319
changes the world and changes

1343
00:52:51,829 --> 00:52:48,780
us who do the attending so it's a very

1344
00:52:55,309 --> 00:52:51,839
very important thing and in that open

1345
00:52:57,170 --> 00:52:55,319
attending we come to hear things and we

1346
00:52:59,210 --> 00:52:57,180
can crowd them out I sometimes give the

1347
00:53:01,430 --> 00:52:59,220
image of a you know a gardener not

1348
00:53:04,370 --> 00:53:01,440
actually being able to make a plant of

1349
00:53:06,950 --> 00:53:04,380
course definitely no but what a gardener

1350
00:53:09,349 --> 00:53:06,960
can do is allow the plant to be stifled

1351
00:53:11,270 --> 00:53:09,359
or remove things that would get in the

1352
00:53:13,069 --> 00:53:11,280
way of the plants thriving and that's

1353
00:53:14,210 --> 00:53:13,079
really what a gardener is and we are

1354
00:53:17,750 --> 00:53:14,220
like that

1355
00:53:21,349 --> 00:53:17,760
shoes and spiritual depth and meaning

1356
00:53:25,270 --> 00:53:21,359
and wisdom come to us and we either

1357
00:53:29,870 --> 00:53:25,280
drive them out with our noisy uh

1358
00:53:31,670 --> 00:53:29,880
logicizing and rationalizing and what

1359
00:53:34,970 --> 00:53:31,680
they call Monkey mind as you know in

1360
00:53:37,970 --> 00:53:34,980
yeah yeah in Oriental traditions and

1361
00:53:39,349 --> 00:53:37,980
instead we should cultivate silence

1362
00:53:42,530 --> 00:53:39,359
really it's one of the things I like

1363
00:53:45,829 --> 00:53:42,540
about where I I live on sky is it's a

1364
00:53:48,710 --> 00:53:45,839
you know probably silent

1365
00:53:50,510 --> 00:53:48,720
so in the analogy with the plants The

1366
00:53:52,490 --> 00:53:50,520
Gardener is doing something though

1367
00:53:54,950 --> 00:53:52,500
you're making an analogy about attention

1368
00:53:56,210 --> 00:53:54,960
so is there another analogy where it

1369
00:53:58,130 --> 00:53:56,220
doesn't require doing because you're

1370
00:54:00,589 --> 00:53:58,140
trying to show the act itself is not

1371
00:54:03,349 --> 00:54:00,599
what we should be pursuing you you you

1372
00:54:05,410 --> 00:54:03,359
you're very good to pick that up and I

1373
00:54:08,750 --> 00:54:05,420
was hoping that you wouldn't

1374
00:54:10,569 --> 00:54:08,760
uh it is it's just like being

1375
00:54:15,109 --> 00:54:10,579
um well I think actually

1376
00:54:17,750 --> 00:54:15,119
you know teaching is is a responsive

1377
00:54:20,510 --> 00:54:17,760
business so partly you are saying things

1378
00:54:23,390 --> 00:54:20,520
but partly you're also receiving things

1379
00:54:27,290 --> 00:54:23,400
and there's an exchange and I think that

1380
00:54:30,170 --> 00:54:27,300
a proper Gardener attends to what the

1381
00:54:32,410 --> 00:54:30,180
gardener is looking at but doesn't rush

1382
00:54:34,849 --> 00:54:32,420
in there kind of I mean

1383
00:54:36,650 --> 00:54:34,859
pulling it up to see whether it's root

1384
00:54:38,750 --> 00:54:36,660
system is working properly according to

1385
00:54:40,849 --> 00:54:38,760
the science is not a good way to improve

1386
00:54:43,130 --> 00:54:40,859
the life of a plug so there's a certain

1387
00:54:46,430 --> 00:54:43,140
degree of standing off I think is the

1388
00:54:48,530 --> 00:54:46,440
way I would put it of holding back of

1389
00:54:54,730 --> 00:54:48,540
being careful to observe rather than

1390
00:55:01,150 --> 00:54:56,809
no I was just going to say that it's

1391
00:55:06,349 --> 00:55:04,010
rings a bell for me as a doctor because

1392
00:55:07,790 --> 00:55:06,359
in my training I was constantly told I

1393
00:55:10,670 --> 00:55:07,800
mean although doctors are always doing

1394
00:55:12,770 --> 00:55:10,680
things that first of all one shouldn't

1395
00:55:15,950 --> 00:55:12,780
rush in and apply things

1396
00:55:17,930 --> 00:55:15,960
um but also that in making a diagnosis

1397
00:55:19,250 --> 00:55:17,940
the first thing to do is to stand back

1398
00:55:21,950 --> 00:55:19,260
and look

1399
00:55:24,710 --> 00:55:21,960
and allow things to come to observe

1400
00:55:28,910 --> 00:55:24,720
things and only then do you even lay a

1401
00:55:31,069 --> 00:55:28,920
finger on a patient and only as a last

1402
00:55:33,770 --> 00:55:31,079
resort do you send for an um an

1403
00:55:35,930 --> 00:55:33,780
investigation to confirm or disconfirm

1404
00:55:38,210 --> 00:55:35,940
the conclusion you've received so even

1405
00:55:39,890 --> 00:55:38,220
somebody as Interventional as a doctor

1406
00:55:42,410 --> 00:55:39,900
if they're going to be good has to be

1407
00:55:43,910 --> 00:55:42,420
able to receive things and there's a

1408
00:55:45,410 --> 00:55:43,920
psychiatrist of course which is what I

1409
00:55:47,690 --> 00:55:45,420
ended up at

1410
00:55:49,730 --> 00:55:47,700
um that's doubly true

1411
00:55:51,470 --> 00:55:49,740
okay I want to respond because I do

1412
00:55:53,930 --> 00:55:51,480
think cultivation is actually excellent

1413
00:55:55,549 --> 00:55:53,940
uh a metaphor

1414
00:55:57,950 --> 00:55:55,559
um and I I if you'll notice I always say

1415
00:55:59,809 --> 00:55:57,960
the cultivation of wisdom I'm very

1416
00:56:02,450 --> 00:55:59,819
careful about that for precisely that

1417
00:56:05,870 --> 00:56:02,460
reason

1418
00:56:08,150 --> 00:56:05,880
um and so uh first of all the the uh you

1419
00:56:10,370 --> 00:56:08,160
know conversions across very different

1420
00:56:11,990 --> 00:56:10,380
cultures at the heart of neoplatonism is

1421
00:56:13,549 --> 00:56:12,000
this idea of cultivating a profound

1422
00:56:15,950 --> 00:56:13,559
receptivity

1423
00:56:18,710 --> 00:56:15,960
um taoism you have Wu way which is the

1424
00:56:21,650 --> 00:56:18,720
profound uh receptivity I'll be liking

1425
00:56:23,690 --> 00:56:21,660
being like the uncarved block uh it's uh

1426
00:56:25,730 --> 00:56:23,700
at slingerland's book trying not to try

1427
00:56:27,530 --> 00:56:25,740
and that's what I would say to you Kurt

1428
00:56:29,210 --> 00:56:27,540
um the doing is a doing that undermines

1429
00:56:30,950 --> 00:56:29,220
itself is doing

1430
00:56:32,990 --> 00:56:30,960
um which sounds like a paradox but when

1431
00:56:34,609 --> 00:56:33,000
you do it like when when you if you want

1432
00:56:36,170 --> 00:56:34,619
to get into the Flow State and you keep

1433
00:56:38,030 --> 00:56:36,180
trying to get into the Flow State you

1434
00:56:41,450 --> 00:56:38,040
will never get into the Flow State it

1435
00:56:44,390 --> 00:56:41,460
doesn't mean being limply passive you

1436
00:56:46,430 --> 00:56:44,400
have to do in a way that undermines it

1437
00:56:49,790 --> 00:56:46,440
as a doing so that you find yourself

1438
00:56:52,130 --> 00:56:49,800
caught up in the Flow State and then you

1439
00:56:54,109 --> 00:56:52,140
flow which is not something you do it is

1440
00:56:56,210 --> 00:56:54,119
something you participate in and I think

1441
00:56:58,309 --> 00:56:56,220
getting that what stagmire calls that

1442
00:57:01,130 --> 00:56:58,319
proper orientation which is I think what

1443
00:57:03,109 --> 00:57:01,140
ratio religio is is the the key thing

1444
00:57:04,370 --> 00:57:03,119
and that's Iris Murdoch in the

1445
00:57:06,950 --> 00:57:04,380
sovereignty of the good speaking from

1446
00:57:09,770 --> 00:57:06,960
the neoplatonic tradition right that the

1447
00:57:12,530 --> 00:57:09,780
most important moral act the the the the

1448
00:57:15,470 --> 00:57:12,540
core moral Act is how giving things

1449
00:57:18,049 --> 00:57:15,480
their proper attention uh and she makes

1450
00:57:20,329 --> 00:57:18,059
that argument as the key to ethics and

1451
00:57:22,250 --> 00:57:20,339
how it has been largely ignored by the

1452
00:57:25,250 --> 00:57:22,260
analytic ethical tradition that had been

1453
00:57:26,870 --> 00:57:25,260
growing up right in the 20th century and

1454
00:57:29,870 --> 00:57:26,880
and I think that is fundamentally right

1455
00:57:31,490 --> 00:57:29,880
I think uh and I think that and virtue

1456
00:57:33,950 --> 00:57:31,500
ethics I think is moving towards that

1457
00:57:35,870 --> 00:57:33,960
that and because Murdoch also said you

1458
00:57:37,190 --> 00:57:35,880
know love is when you when you finally

1459
00:57:40,190 --> 00:57:37,200
acknowledge that something other than

1460
00:57:44,510 --> 00:57:40,200
yourself is real and and right and so

1461
00:57:48,530 --> 00:57:44,520
it's this this this this ability to get

1462
00:57:52,430 --> 00:57:48,540
oneself into a a receptivity to flow

1463
00:57:55,670 --> 00:57:52,440
such that one is properly evolving one's

1464
00:57:58,549 --> 00:57:55,680
attention to conform

1465
00:58:02,329 --> 00:57:58,559
in the Aristotelian sense to the

1466
00:58:05,390 --> 00:58:02,339
ligaments of reality I think that's the

1467
00:58:06,410 --> 00:58:05,400
ultimate thing that uh uh I'm trying to

1468
00:58:09,230 --> 00:58:06,420
talk about a lot when I'm talking about

1469
00:58:12,349 --> 00:58:09,240
relevance realization and etc etc

1470
00:58:14,150 --> 00:58:12,359
yeah I I just like to add a little

1471
00:58:18,290 --> 00:58:14,160
um Rider to all of this which is that

1472
00:58:20,270 --> 00:58:18,300
there is way is puzzling to westerners

1473
00:58:24,049 --> 00:58:20,280
initially because it means not doing

1474
00:58:26,930 --> 00:58:24,059
basically and and there is a not doing

1475
00:58:29,089 --> 00:58:26,940
which is quite different from passively

1476
00:58:31,309 --> 00:58:29,099
not doing something that is the other

1477
00:58:33,349 --> 00:58:31,319
side of doing just as there's an

1478
00:58:35,569 --> 00:58:33,359
unknowing which is not ignorance that

1479
00:58:38,510 --> 00:58:35,579
comes before knowing but the unknowing

1480
00:58:40,370 --> 00:58:38,520
that comes after knowledge sure and

1481
00:58:42,289 --> 00:58:40,380
there's an innocence that is not the

1482
00:58:44,750 --> 00:58:42,299
same as the innocence of a child but an

1483
00:58:47,030 --> 00:58:44,760
innocence that can only come after deep

1484
00:58:49,849 --> 00:58:47,040
experience of life and is what one

1485
00:58:53,809 --> 00:58:49,859
recognizes in truly deep wise spiritual

1486
00:58:56,150 --> 00:58:53,819
figures I agree and uh I argue that you

1487
00:58:57,890 --> 00:58:56,160
know Socrates claiming that he knows

1488
00:59:00,530 --> 00:58:57,900
that he does not know comes to fruition

1489
00:59:04,730 --> 00:59:00,540
in Nicholas of kuza's learned ignorance

1490
00:59:08,210 --> 00:59:04,740
yes uh right exactly that and and yes

1491
00:59:11,089 --> 00:59:08,220
it's a it's a profound way of

1492
00:59:13,010 --> 00:59:11,099
and for me it's a profound way of being

1493
00:59:15,890 --> 00:59:13,020
able to exercise this discernment so

1494
00:59:19,250 --> 00:59:15,900
Titus talks about the the nothingness

1495
00:59:21,950 --> 00:59:19,260
that is a privation and then the no

1496
00:59:25,190 --> 00:59:21,960
thingness that is a superlative the

1497
00:59:27,650 --> 00:59:25,200
really real and that you need a certain

1498
00:59:30,349 --> 00:59:27,660
proper kind of educating of your

1499
00:59:33,170 --> 00:59:30,359
sensibility and receptivity to be able

1500
00:59:35,569 --> 00:59:33,180
to discern nothingness from No thingness

1501
00:59:37,970 --> 00:59:35,579
and when you could when you could do

1502
00:59:40,490 --> 00:59:37,980
that that leads to a very

1503
00:59:42,349 --> 00:59:40,500
well one of the most profound kinds of

1504
00:59:44,809 --> 00:59:42,359
connectedness there there can possibly

1505
00:59:48,049 --> 00:59:44,819
be and that emptiness

1506
00:59:50,809 --> 00:59:48,059
um yes that is uh famously

1507
00:59:53,390 --> 00:59:50,819
um sought through Buddhist practices is

1508
00:59:55,270 --> 00:59:53,400
isn't as you say is not an emptiness in

1509
00:59:59,569 --> 00:59:55,280
the sense of the just nothing nothing

1510
01:00:00,650 --> 00:59:59,579
too it's it's the uh the the word in

1511
01:00:01,910 --> 01:00:00,660
Sanskrit

1512
01:00:08,390 --> 01:00:01,920
um

1513
01:00:11,089 --> 01:00:08,400
seed that is swelling and it's interior

1514
01:00:13,190 --> 01:00:11,099
and life is coming forward or a womb The

1515
01:00:15,890 --> 01:00:13,200
Emptiness of a womb that will be the

1516
01:00:18,170 --> 01:00:15,900
fertile space exactly exactly and and

1517
01:00:21,049 --> 01:00:18,180
the root word for compassion in the

1518
01:00:24,950 --> 01:00:21,059
Hebrew tradition is being womb-like uh

1519
01:00:27,170 --> 01:00:24,960
for exactly the same uh yes so yeah

1520
01:00:29,390 --> 01:00:27,180
that's exactly it but the point I was

1521
01:00:31,910 --> 01:00:29,400
making is to your point about westerners

1522
01:00:33,710 --> 01:00:31,920
like you have to develop this isn't

1523
01:00:35,569 --> 01:00:33,720
quite the right word but if you'll allow

1524
01:00:37,370 --> 01:00:35,579
me to pour a lot through conveyance into

1525
01:00:39,770 --> 01:00:37,380
the word you have to develop the taste

1526
01:00:42,710 --> 01:00:39,780
for that difference

1527
01:00:44,510 --> 01:00:42,720
um and it's like it's not a thought it's

1528
01:00:48,170 --> 01:00:44,520
more of that I mean it requires thought

1529
01:00:50,450 --> 01:00:48,180
but it's more but like for me I D I

1530
01:00:53,089 --> 01:00:50,460
could not understand Wu way until I've

1531
01:00:56,630 --> 01:00:53,099
been practicing Tai Chi Chuan for like

1532
01:00:59,870 --> 01:00:56,640
over six years because when I started oh

1533
01:01:02,089 --> 01:00:59,880
that's it that's it there and and and

1534
01:01:04,250 --> 01:01:02,099
what's amazing is that's what comes out

1535
01:01:05,630 --> 01:01:04,260
when you're sparring if you try to spar

1536
01:01:07,910 --> 01:01:05,640
you'll lose

1537
01:01:09,549 --> 01:01:07,920
but if you woo way into sparring you'll

1538
01:01:13,069 --> 01:01:09,559
do a great job

1539
01:01:15,170 --> 01:01:13,079
be in the full State well it means that

1540
01:01:18,789 --> 01:01:15,180
pregnant emptiness that Ian's talking

1541
01:01:22,190 --> 01:01:18,799
about that gives birth to what is needed

1542
01:01:26,170 --> 01:01:22,200
appropriately at the moment

1543
01:01:29,329 --> 01:01:26,180
okay and that's called no thingness

1544
01:01:32,930 --> 01:01:29,339
I'm not a signologist but I I think that

1545
01:01:35,569 --> 01:01:32,940
way means non-action it means yeah that

1546
01:01:37,849 --> 01:01:35,579
means not doing not doing exactly but

1547
01:01:39,130 --> 01:01:37,859
but the metaphors are still the the

1548
01:01:42,470 --> 01:01:39,140
metaphors

1549
01:01:45,109 --> 01:01:42,480
emptiness they give birth when I was

1550
01:01:47,390 --> 01:01:45,119
proposing they line up with uh very much

1551
01:01:49,130 --> 01:01:47,400
the alerted ignorance and the no

1552
01:01:52,309 --> 01:01:49,140
thickness of the neoplatonic tradition

1553
01:01:54,530 --> 01:01:52,319
Nicholas accuser platinus Etc

1554
01:01:55,849 --> 01:01:54,540
I I'm not I'm not I'm not a perennialist

1555
01:01:57,230 --> 01:01:55,859
I'm not claiming that they're all saying

1556
01:01:59,329 --> 01:01:57,240
exactly the same thing but I'm saying

1557
01:02:01,190 --> 01:01:59,339
there's deep convergence from very

1558
01:02:03,109 --> 01:02:01,200
different traditions and histories that

1559
01:02:05,150 --> 01:02:03,119
makes plausible the place they get to

1560
01:02:06,950 --> 01:02:05,160
well the concept of The Perennial

1561
01:02:09,530 --> 01:02:06,960
philosophy can be on the one hand

1562
01:02:12,230 --> 01:02:09,540
exaggerated and on the other under

1563
01:02:13,970 --> 01:02:12,240
respected uh yes there is a great deal

1564
01:02:16,670 --> 01:02:13,980
in common between the Traditions there

1565
01:02:17,750 --> 01:02:16,680
of course not not exactly the same and

1566
01:02:19,970 --> 01:02:17,760
that's the wonderful thing about

1567
01:02:21,530 --> 01:02:19,980
people's different traditions and

1568
01:02:23,569 --> 01:02:21,540
different perspectives looking at

1569
01:02:25,970 --> 01:02:23,579
something that is recognizably the same

1570
01:02:28,430 --> 01:02:25,980
but from each perspective something new

1571
01:02:31,190 --> 01:02:28,440
will be added to our understanding of

1572
01:02:34,789 --> 01:02:31,200
what it is in fact that's my idea of

1573
01:02:37,250 --> 01:02:34,799
what objectivity is it's not

1574
01:02:40,250 --> 01:02:37,260
um a rather peculiar state in which one

1575
01:02:42,349 --> 01:02:40,260
denies the humanness of the Observer who

1576
01:02:44,230 --> 01:02:42,359
is the only one who knows all this stuff

1577
01:02:46,849 --> 01:02:44,240
that one's calling objective

1578
01:02:48,289 --> 01:02:46,859
that would be a very very strange way of

1579
01:02:50,630 --> 01:02:48,299
looking at the world not necessarily

1580
01:02:53,089 --> 01:02:50,640
revealing of truth but what seems

1581
01:02:54,849 --> 01:02:53,099
important is not to be

1582
01:02:57,589 --> 01:02:54,859
um as it were

1583
01:02:59,030 --> 01:02:57,599
solely indebted to one perspective but

1584
01:03:01,190 --> 01:02:59,040
to be able to see a number of

1585
01:03:03,049 --> 01:03:01,200
perspectives and to allow them to

1586
01:03:05,390 --> 01:03:03,059
complement one another and that in that

1587
01:03:08,109 --> 01:03:05,400
sense one of them will be this one in

1588
01:03:10,849 --> 01:03:08,119
which one is trying to eliminate

1589
01:03:12,770 --> 01:03:10,859
forcibly one's own person in the

1590
01:03:14,329 --> 01:03:12,780
encounter with whatever it is it's a

1591
01:03:17,569 --> 01:03:14,339
strange thing to do but it it's worth

1592
01:03:19,250 --> 01:03:17,579
doing but it doesn't in the end uh as

1593
01:03:20,450 --> 01:03:19,260
modern physics tells us it doesn't in

1594
01:03:22,849 --> 01:03:20,460
the end

1595
01:03:25,670 --> 01:03:22,859
um work out as the the best way to

1596
01:03:28,609 --> 01:03:25,680
understand the material or immaterial

1597
01:03:30,530 --> 01:03:28,619
world yeah I agree wholeheartedly with

1598
01:03:31,370 --> 01:03:30,540
that I think

1599
01:03:35,150 --> 01:03:31,380
um

1600
01:03:37,910 --> 01:03:35,160
I think I'm deeply influenced by NATO on

1601
01:03:40,430 --> 01:03:37,920
this the attempt understanding the view

1602
01:03:43,190 --> 01:03:40,440
from nowhere no but but in the Absurd

1603
01:03:45,289 --> 01:03:43,200
yes sir he basically argues that the

1604
01:03:47,510 --> 01:03:45,299
view from nowhere also generates the

1605
01:03:49,190 --> 01:03:47,520
Absurd right yes the perspective of a

1606
01:03:52,250 --> 01:03:49,200
Flash and so there's something there's

1607
01:03:53,750 --> 01:03:52,260
something paradoxical if our of our

1608
01:03:55,670 --> 01:03:53,760
fundamental guiding metaphor of

1609
01:03:57,890 --> 01:03:55,680
objectivity is the same one that gets us

1610
01:03:59,450 --> 01:03:57,900
into finding reality absurd because

1611
01:04:00,670 --> 01:03:59,460
science is depending on the

1612
01:04:03,230 --> 01:04:00,680
intelligibility

1613
01:04:04,910 --> 01:04:03,240
and I just want to ghost what I said

1614
01:04:08,390 --> 01:04:04,920
because it's very very important that

1615
01:04:11,089 --> 01:04:08,400
I'm not misunderstood I don't think that

1616
01:04:13,490 --> 01:04:11,099
the term objectivity has no job to do I

1617
01:04:16,069 --> 01:04:13,500
think it's a very important term and

1618
01:04:19,789 --> 01:04:16,079
what it means is arriving at the most

1619
01:04:21,710 --> 01:04:19,799
rich most true perception of what it is

1620
01:04:24,230 --> 01:04:21,720
one's looking at and that means not

1621
01:04:26,450 --> 01:04:24,240
allowing oneself to be swayed by some

1622
01:04:28,849 --> 01:04:26,460
completely extraordinary biased way of

1623
01:04:31,510 --> 01:04:28,859
looking at the world so I know I'm

1624
01:04:35,210 --> 01:04:31,520
equally opposed to that and just because

1625
01:04:37,730 --> 01:04:35,220
the clinically detached impossible view

1626
01:04:40,490 --> 01:04:37,740
of the non-person is not possible

1627
01:04:42,890 --> 01:04:40,500
doesn't mean that it's free for all for

1628
01:04:45,650 --> 01:04:42,900
any point of view not at all some points

1629
01:04:47,690 --> 01:04:45,660
of view are Dreadful noxious and not

1630
01:04:50,630 --> 01:04:47,700
only untrue but damaging other points of

1631
01:04:53,569 --> 01:04:50,640
view may be rich welcoming and unfolding

1632
01:04:57,530 --> 01:04:53,579
of life and vitality and creativity yeah

1633
01:04:59,870 --> 01:04:57,540
I I and again I'm in agreement with you

1634
01:05:01,609 --> 01:04:59,880
um because I was not I was not proposing

1635
01:05:04,370 --> 01:05:01,619
a rejection of the notion of objectivity

1636
01:05:06,829 --> 01:05:04,380
no no no I was proposing to reject a

1637
01:05:08,809 --> 01:05:06,839
particular model that has helped captive

1638
01:05:10,490 --> 01:05:08,819
you know beckenstein's liechtenstein's

1639
01:05:13,250 --> 01:05:10,500
idea about a picture holding us captive

1640
01:05:14,870 --> 01:05:13,260
yeah I knew you weren't saying that I

1641
01:05:16,789 --> 01:05:14,880
just wanted for everyone's sake to make

1642
01:05:18,410 --> 01:05:16,799
clear that neither of us were were

1643
01:05:20,750 --> 01:05:18,420
really putting down that particular

1644
01:05:23,089 --> 01:05:20,760
Rabbit Hole of post-modernism in which

1645
01:05:25,309 --> 01:05:23,099
every every point of view is equally

1646
01:05:27,650 --> 01:05:25,319
valid absolutely no no no at some points

1647
01:05:30,589 --> 01:05:27,660
no absolutely absurd others are

1648
01:05:32,089 --> 01:05:30,599
extraordinarily deep so so my view my

1649
01:05:35,510 --> 01:05:32,099
view on this is deeply influenced by

1650
01:05:37,730 --> 01:05:35,520
Confluence of sort of of uh the the

1651
01:05:39,410 --> 01:05:37,740
third wave of platonic scholarship and

1652
01:05:43,250 --> 01:05:39,420
Marlo Ponte

1653
01:05:46,130 --> 01:05:43,260
um and the idea uh first of all

1654
01:05:47,990 --> 01:05:46,140
so here's a thing and first of all

1655
01:05:48,950 --> 01:05:48,000
realize that you can never see the whole

1656
01:05:53,030 --> 01:05:48,960
thing

1657
01:05:55,130 --> 01:05:53,040
matter where you look at it right there

1658
01:05:57,170 --> 01:05:55,140
are multiple aspects and they're not

1659
01:05:58,730 --> 01:05:57,180
only multiple aspects in terms of its

1660
01:06:00,890 --> 01:05:58,740
visibility there's multiple tactile

1661
01:06:04,490 --> 01:06:00,900
aspects there's multiple auditory

1662
01:06:07,370 --> 01:06:04,500
there's multiple uses of this and then

1663
01:06:10,309 --> 01:06:07,380
what you start to realize is that there

1664
01:06:12,109 --> 01:06:10,319
is multi-espectuality and then not only

1665
01:06:14,510 --> 01:06:12,119
is it multi-ess factuality within a

1666
01:06:17,030 --> 01:06:14,520
person there is multi there are multiple

1667
01:06:19,670 --> 01:06:17,040
perspectives on any one thing this is

1668
01:06:22,069 --> 01:06:19,680
why biological reason is so important

1669
01:06:24,410 --> 01:06:22,079
and then for me what you're trying to do

1670
01:06:26,870 --> 01:06:24,420
and this is Marlo ponte's sort of

1671
01:06:28,130 --> 01:06:26,880
critique of historal you're trying to

1672
01:06:30,710 --> 01:06:28,140
find the through line

1673
01:06:33,650 --> 01:06:30,720
because what you realize is that right

1674
01:06:36,890 --> 01:06:33,660
the these this doesn't come off as a

1675
01:06:39,529 --> 01:06:36,900
cacophonous you know Cubist painting

1676
01:06:41,630 --> 01:06:39,539
there's a Melody here and it's not this

1677
01:06:43,910 --> 01:06:41,640
is not logically identical to this or

1678
01:06:45,410 --> 01:06:43,920
this or this but nevertheless there is a

1679
01:06:48,829 --> 01:06:45,420
through line of intelligibility what

1680
01:06:50,450 --> 01:06:48,839
John Newsom calls a musicality to it and

1681
01:06:53,270 --> 01:06:50,460
for me

1682
01:06:55,970 --> 01:06:53,280
um and it's inexhaustible it's

1683
01:06:58,309 --> 01:06:55,980
inexhaustible that leads to the idea of

1684
01:07:00,289 --> 01:06:58,319
the person as continuous

1685
01:07:02,210 --> 01:07:00,299
um we've got a second idea that our

1686
01:07:04,849 --> 01:07:02,220
lives are made up of moments like time

1687
01:07:07,190 --> 01:07:04,859
slices but they're not they are like a

1688
01:07:10,130 --> 01:07:07,200
melody as as only Belgium said that

1689
01:07:12,410 --> 01:07:10,140
one's personality has this exactly

1690
01:07:15,589 --> 01:07:12,420
picture of a Melody which is always

1691
01:07:19,190 --> 01:07:15,599
unfolding and and that um that's a very

1692
01:07:21,109 --> 01:07:19,200
important Insight but thank you because

1693
01:07:24,230 --> 01:07:21,119
that's the point I want what for me

1694
01:07:26,529 --> 01:07:24,240
objectivity is when I have this melody

1695
01:07:29,930 --> 01:07:26,539
as you put it in sync with that Melody

1696
01:07:33,589 --> 01:07:29,940
there's a continuity of contact yeah so

1697
01:07:35,930 --> 01:07:33,599
that I can I can within my finite

1698
01:07:38,390 --> 01:07:35,940
Transcendence is how as Highland puts it

1699
01:07:41,329 --> 01:07:38,400
I can disclose as much of that

1700
01:07:43,069 --> 01:07:41,339
inexhaustible multi-ess factuality and

1701
01:07:46,250 --> 01:07:43,079
multi multiple perspectives as I

1702
01:07:48,049 --> 01:07:46,260
possibly can within a integrated

1703
01:07:50,930 --> 01:07:48,059
intelligibility

1704
01:07:53,089 --> 01:07:50,940
that that's that's the proposal that's

1705
01:07:55,430 --> 01:07:53,099
coming out of people like Marlo Ponte

1706
01:07:58,069 --> 01:07:55,440
how we should re-under and I think it's

1707
01:08:01,010 --> 01:07:58,079
actually Plato's proposal uh I think I

1708
01:08:03,289 --> 01:08:01,020
think I think Gonzalez and Highland uh

1709
01:08:05,690 --> 01:08:03,299
and Kirkland and all of the third wave

1710
01:08:08,089 --> 01:08:05,700
are right on about that and I think that

1711
01:08:09,770 --> 01:08:08,099
is how we should and that's not that's a

1712
01:08:12,710 --> 01:08:09,780
non-thangy way of thinking in because

1713
01:08:14,870 --> 01:08:12,720
the through line is not any aspect it is

1714
01:08:17,570 --> 01:08:14,880
not any perspective precisely because it

1715
01:08:19,189 --> 01:08:17,580
is that which binds all the aspects and

1716
01:08:21,050 --> 01:08:19,199
all the uh all the perspectives together

1717
01:08:23,329 --> 01:08:21,060
and for me what needs all those

1718
01:08:25,610 --> 01:08:23,339
perspective says what

1719
01:08:27,410 --> 01:08:25,620
um Russell called atombrations of the

1720
01:08:30,229 --> 01:08:27,420
thing one needs to see it from as many

1721
01:08:32,930 --> 01:08:30,239
exactly exactly exactly exactly but

1722
01:08:34,669 --> 01:08:32,940
without uh as I say this ridiculous idea

1723
01:08:38,390 --> 01:08:34,679
that anything goes

1724
01:08:40,930 --> 01:08:38,400
um do you know the uh the Japanese zen

1725
01:08:43,930 --> 01:08:40,940
garden riyanji

1726
01:08:48,349 --> 01:08:43,940
it's a very beautiful garden it has 15

1727
01:08:50,090 --> 01:08:48,359
rocks set out in the in the sand and

1728
01:08:53,410 --> 01:08:50,100
from wherever you stand in the garden

1729
01:08:56,709 --> 01:08:53,420
the most you can ever see is 14 of them

1730
01:08:58,970 --> 01:08:56,719
okay so I love that

1731
01:09:00,769 --> 01:08:58,980
Nicholas accuser when he writes the

1732
01:09:03,289 --> 01:09:00,779
vision of God and he sends it to the

1733
01:09:05,570 --> 01:09:03,299
monastery he sends a painting

1734
01:09:07,010 --> 01:09:05,580
and no matter where you stand in the

1735
01:09:08,930 --> 01:09:07,020
room it looks like the painting is

1736
01:09:10,789 --> 01:09:08,940
looking at you and then he says first

1737
01:09:12,950 --> 01:09:10,799
everybody do that and then do the

1738
01:09:14,930 --> 01:09:12,960
following one monk stands in one place

1739
01:09:17,269 --> 01:09:14,940
and another Monk stands in the farthest

1740
01:09:19,189 --> 01:09:17,279
other place and they both claim that the

1741
01:09:20,809 --> 01:09:19,199
picture is looking at them and then he

1742
01:09:22,910 --> 01:09:20,819
says

1743
01:09:26,269 --> 01:09:22,920
go ahead no that's just true of any

1744
01:09:28,010 --> 01:09:26,279
painting where you exactly it's nothing

1745
01:09:29,990 --> 01:09:28,020
special it's just this phenomenon here

1746
01:09:31,490 --> 01:09:30,000
oh yeah he's a following no they're not

1747
01:09:33,910 --> 01:09:31,500
it's just that wherever you look you

1748
01:09:36,249 --> 01:09:33,920
think the face is looking at you

1749
01:09:39,169 --> 01:09:36,259
so he

1750
01:09:40,849 --> 01:09:39,179
he he well I think that's the point uh

1751
01:09:43,849 --> 01:09:40,859
because then he says

1752
01:09:45,829 --> 01:09:43,859
now try to what would it be like to be

1753
01:09:48,410 --> 01:09:45,839
able to realize this all at once and of

1754
01:09:50,209 --> 01:09:48,420
course you can't but he says that's what

1755
01:09:53,809 --> 01:09:50,219
it is to have the vision of God it's not

1756
01:09:57,290 --> 01:09:53,819
to see God it's to see the way God sees

1757
01:09:58,729 --> 01:09:57,300
right it's to see that through line that

1758
01:10:01,130 --> 01:09:58,739
you can't actually see because it makes

1759
01:10:04,010 --> 01:10:01,140
all seeing possible Right

1760
01:10:07,970 --> 01:10:04,020
and so this is again the non-thingness

1761
01:10:10,610 --> 01:10:07,980
that is not privation but is the

1762
01:10:12,950 --> 01:10:10,620
inexhaustible found which from which

1763
01:10:15,950 --> 01:10:12,960
intelligibility floats and flows and I

1764
01:10:18,850 --> 01:10:15,960
think for me that has been

1765
01:10:21,050 --> 01:10:18,860
that has been my fundamental

1766
01:10:23,750 --> 01:10:21,060
phenomenologically rich and reflective

1767
01:10:25,729 --> 01:10:23,760
experience of the Sacred to exactly find

1768
01:10:27,770 --> 01:10:25,739
that and for me Gerta is is talking

1769
01:10:29,689 --> 01:10:27,780
about that when he's looking at the

1770
01:10:31,550 --> 01:10:29,699
plants and I see the same thing when

1771
01:10:34,490 --> 01:10:31,560
when you're in the platonic dialogues

1772
01:10:36,350 --> 01:10:34,500
you have this Quest right to find the

1773
01:10:38,510 --> 01:10:36,360
virtue but you never get to the answer

1774
01:10:41,209 --> 01:10:38,520
but you get the through Line running and

1775
01:10:42,770 --> 01:10:41,219
all that sort of thing for me and like

1776
01:10:45,110 --> 01:10:42,780
you said that's when I find the sacred

1777
01:10:47,169 --> 01:10:45,120
in another person when I realize that

1778
01:10:49,490 --> 01:10:47,179
there's there's multi-aspected

1779
01:10:51,830 --> 01:10:49,500
multifaceted but there's a through line

1780
01:10:54,110 --> 01:10:51,840
and I can hear it and taste it and

1781
01:10:56,270 --> 01:10:54,120
follow it but I can never complete it or

1782
01:10:58,310 --> 01:10:56,280
grasp it totally and if I say that to

1783
01:11:00,410 --> 01:10:58,320
her I've destroyed the relationship so

1784
01:11:02,870 --> 01:11:00,420
that would be the most foolish thing to

1785
01:11:05,510 --> 01:11:02,880
do but as you said everything is like

1786
01:11:08,450 --> 01:11:05,520
that and that means we can fall in love

1787
01:11:12,350 --> 01:11:08,460
with being again it's not like for me

1788
01:11:15,590 --> 01:11:12,360
that's a real possibility for people

1789
01:11:18,850 --> 01:11:15,600
I'm sorry that that that's for me what I

1790
01:11:22,310 --> 01:11:18,860
I I think is if we could enable people

1791
01:11:24,649 --> 01:11:22,320
read through a way of life to fall in

1792
01:11:27,470 --> 01:11:24,659
love with being again I think that would

1793
01:11:30,169 --> 01:11:27,480
be a deep way of responding to the main

1794
01:11:33,890 --> 01:11:31,209
foreign

1795
01:11:36,169 --> 01:11:33,900
ly a rather nice way of expressing it I

1796
01:11:40,010 --> 01:11:36,179
agree and love is probably going to be

1797
01:11:43,970 --> 01:11:40,020
part of how one achieves that and

1798
01:11:45,950 --> 01:11:43,980
you you touched on that idea of the not

1799
01:11:48,410 --> 01:11:45,960
just the way God sees but of the way we

1800
01:11:50,810 --> 01:11:48,420
see God and I'm trying to think who it

1801
01:11:53,209 --> 01:11:50,820
was now was it it I'm not sure it was

1802
01:11:55,010 --> 01:11:53,219
that card it might have been

1803
01:11:56,649 --> 01:11:55,020
Bonaventure or somebody who said you

1804
01:11:58,510 --> 01:11:56,659
know the eye with which I see God

1805
01:12:01,130 --> 01:11:58,520
Eckhart

1806
01:12:05,570 --> 01:12:01,140
yeah it's the same I was which God sees

1807
01:12:07,910 --> 01:12:05,580
me exactly but anyway yes that's a a

1808
01:12:09,830 --> 01:12:07,920
good point but how on Earth

1809
01:12:11,870 --> 01:12:09,840
um are we to if

1810
01:12:14,450 --> 01:12:11,880
is the subject we're talking about is

1811
01:12:16,430 --> 01:12:14,460
how to bring this about how do we how do

1812
01:12:17,570 --> 01:12:16,440
we help bring it about or perhaps that

1813
01:12:19,729 --> 01:12:17,580
isn't the question or perhaps it's not

1814
01:12:21,229 --> 01:12:19,739
even a good question well I think it's

1815
01:12:23,689 --> 01:12:21,239
whether or not it's a well-formed

1816
01:12:24,290 --> 01:12:23,699
question or not I think it's probative

1817
01:12:25,550 --> 01:12:24,300
um

1818
01:12:27,470 --> 01:12:25,560
one of the books that's had the most

1819
01:12:30,350 --> 01:12:27,480
profound influence on me is religion and

1820
01:12:31,790 --> 01:12:30,360
nothingness by nishitani and he it's a

1821
01:12:34,010 --> 01:12:31,800
fall and it's a masterpiece and it's

1822
01:12:35,750 --> 01:12:34,020
rightly regarded so it's a follow-up to

1823
01:12:38,149 --> 01:12:35,760
his earlier book The self-overcoming of

1824
01:12:39,890 --> 01:12:38,159
violism and to give you a flavor of it

1825
01:12:41,810 --> 01:12:39,900
there's another book very similar to

1826
01:12:44,270 --> 01:12:41,820
eckhart's which was uttered by Nietzsche

1827
01:12:46,250 --> 01:12:44,280
uh if you stare long enough into the

1828
01:12:48,350 --> 01:12:46,260
abyss it begins to stare back into you

1829
01:12:50,689 --> 01:12:48,360
Nietzsche Came Upon something but he

1830
01:12:54,649 --> 01:12:50,699
gets to the edge of it but he doesn't it

1831
01:12:57,890 --> 01:12:54,659
doesn't flip over for him and what uh

1832
01:12:58,669 --> 01:12:57,900
what nishitani proposes is

1833
01:13:01,850 --> 01:12:58,679
um

1834
01:13:03,830 --> 01:13:01,860
he proposes that

1835
01:13:04,850 --> 01:13:03,840
and I I'm interested because you might

1836
01:13:07,790 --> 01:13:04,860
have a really interesting take on

1837
01:13:09,709 --> 01:13:07,800
Nietzsche doesn't doubt deeply enough

1838
01:13:11,390 --> 01:13:09,719
it it's almost like the left hemisphere

1839
01:13:13,189 --> 01:13:11,400
is capable of this profound doubt but it

1840
01:13:14,630 --> 01:13:13,199
can never doubt its own authority or its

1841
01:13:17,229 --> 01:13:14,640
own preeminence or something like that

1842
01:13:20,030 --> 01:13:17,239
yeah so very much yes yes

1843
01:13:21,709 --> 01:13:20,040
and and he proposes like one that one of

1844
01:13:24,110 --> 01:13:21,719
the practice one of the points of Zen is

1845
01:13:26,689 --> 01:13:24,120
to get the great doubt that drops you

1846
01:13:29,090 --> 01:13:26,699
but beneath and then that profound

1847
01:13:32,270 --> 01:13:29,100
resonance beliefs The propositional

1848
01:13:33,890 --> 01:13:32,280
Tyranny gets disclosed to people and I

1849
01:13:37,689 --> 01:13:33,900
think I think that's

1850
01:13:40,610 --> 01:13:37,699
part of what needs to happen right now

1851
01:13:43,189 --> 01:13:40,620
I'm not saying I'm not recommending Zed

1852
01:13:45,350 --> 01:13:43,199
I'm saying we have to get something in

1853
01:13:47,750 --> 01:13:45,360
which we

1854
01:13:49,189 --> 01:13:47,760
we live in the hermeneutics of Suspicion

1855
01:13:51,649 --> 01:13:49,199
where we doubt everything except we

1856
01:13:54,229 --> 01:13:51,659
doubt the perspective The Stance from

1857
01:13:57,290 --> 01:13:54,239
which that happens and I've been trying

1858
01:14:00,890 --> 01:13:57,300
to figure out the semantic philosophical

1859
01:14:04,970 --> 01:14:00,900
Jujitsu moved right in order to get that

1860
01:14:07,250 --> 01:14:04,980
doubt to actually turn onto itself in a

1861
01:14:08,930 --> 01:14:07,260
profoundly transformative way without of

1862
01:14:10,850 --> 01:14:08,940
course destroying people's sanity or

1863
01:14:12,410 --> 01:14:10,860
lives or putting them into a psychotic

1864
01:14:15,110 --> 01:14:12,420
break or anything ridiculous like that

1865
01:14:17,930 --> 01:14:15,120
no of course but one of the things that

1866
01:14:19,790 --> 01:14:17,940
can break us out of that doubting of

1867
01:14:22,910 --> 01:14:19,800
everything

1868
01:14:24,950 --> 01:14:22,920
um is the experience the Transcendent

1869
01:14:29,050 --> 01:14:24,960
experience of something very real and

1870
01:14:31,550 --> 01:14:29,060
it's yeah in a way that comes as part of

1871
01:14:32,990 --> 01:14:31,560
is it's one of these self-referential

1872
01:14:35,209 --> 01:14:33,000
things that you can't break into it

1873
01:14:37,550 --> 01:14:35,219
unfortunately because you can't cause

1874
01:14:39,050 --> 01:14:37,560
this experience to happen to you but you

1875
01:14:41,750 --> 01:14:39,060
can put yourself in the way of it

1876
01:14:43,790 --> 01:14:41,760
happening yes included and what worries

1877
01:14:47,030 --> 01:14:43,800
me is that the way we live now with our

1878
01:14:50,630 --> 01:14:47,040
attention so fragmented and ourselves so

1879
01:14:52,490 --> 01:14:50,640
bound up in verbal noise and discussion

1880
01:14:53,689 --> 01:14:52,500
about you know all the things we're

1881
01:14:56,330 --> 01:14:53,699
talking about one of the things that

1882
01:14:58,310 --> 01:14:56,340
troubles me actually about where this

1883
01:15:00,050 --> 01:14:58,320
conversation is going is that the wise

1884
01:15:01,850 --> 01:15:00,060
person stops talking at this point

1885
01:15:03,770 --> 01:15:01,860
because really we're entering the

1886
01:15:04,970 --> 01:15:03,780
territory where you cannot talk about it

1887
01:15:08,330 --> 01:15:04,980
so

1888
01:15:10,149 --> 01:15:08,340
um but we drown out the possibility of

1889
01:15:12,890 --> 01:15:10,159
being there for

1890
01:15:14,630 --> 01:15:12,900
whatever you mean by the sacred even for

1891
01:15:17,030 --> 01:15:14,640
the beautiful because you need to attend

1892
01:15:18,709 --> 01:15:17,040
to it deeply not just sort of allow it

1893
01:15:20,330 --> 01:15:18,719
to be in the background somewhere you

1894
01:15:22,430 --> 01:15:20,340
actually have to

1895
01:15:26,030 --> 01:15:22,440
have an encounter with it and it's that

1896
01:15:26,930 --> 01:15:26,040
that changes changes once one's way of

1897
01:15:30,050 --> 01:15:26,940
being

1898
01:15:33,169 --> 01:15:30,060
I suppose I agree with you and I I mean

1899
01:15:35,510 --> 01:15:33,179
I I do think what

1900
01:15:39,169 --> 01:15:35,520
there is an intermediary

1901
01:15:40,850 --> 01:15:39,179
which is to try and find people that are

1902
01:15:43,310 --> 01:15:40,860
exemplifying

1903
01:15:44,870 --> 01:15:43,320
an encounter with the really real and

1904
01:15:46,430 --> 01:15:44,880
there's a there's a large proportion of

1905
01:15:48,890 --> 01:15:46,440
the population in which that even

1906
01:15:52,550 --> 01:15:48,900
happens spontaneously at least 30 at

1907
01:15:54,290 --> 01:15:52,560
least 30 percent perhaps 40. so we've

1908
01:15:55,550 --> 01:15:54,300
got a culture that silences them but it

1909
01:15:57,770 --> 01:15:55,560
doesn't have to be the way there's no

1910
01:16:00,169 --> 01:15:57,780
necessity for that no you're right

1911
01:16:01,790 --> 01:16:00,179
so for me it's beyond a trend it's

1912
01:16:04,669 --> 01:16:01,800
beyond a mystical experience it's a

1913
01:16:08,470 --> 01:16:04,679
transformative experience so

1914
01:16:10,130 --> 01:16:08,480
um uh it's an experience in which

1915
01:16:12,290 --> 01:16:10,140
one

1916
01:16:15,410 --> 01:16:12,300
has many of the features of a mystical

1917
01:16:19,070 --> 01:16:15,420
experience the Oneness the the the the

1918
01:16:22,310 --> 01:16:19,080
the the the hereness the numbness the

1919
01:16:24,890 --> 01:16:22,320
altogetherness the depth of realness but

1920
01:16:26,209 --> 01:16:24,900
it's ultimately ineffable but it carries

1921
01:16:27,169 --> 01:16:26,219
with it

1922
01:16:34,070 --> 01:16:27,179
um

1923
01:16:36,229 --> 01:16:34,080
real such that people do the following

1924
01:16:38,090 --> 01:16:36,239
they will they'll do something weird

1925
01:16:39,530 --> 01:16:38,100
normally when we have an aberrant State

1926
01:16:41,870 --> 01:16:39,540
of Consciousness that doesn't fit into

1927
01:16:44,149 --> 01:16:41,880
our everyday Consciousness we use that

1928
01:16:46,370 --> 01:16:44,159
to say it's not real like a dream or

1929
01:16:47,990 --> 01:16:46,380
being drunk but they do the opposite

1930
01:16:50,810 --> 01:16:48,000
they cut they have these experiences and

1931
01:16:55,189 --> 01:16:50,820
they say that was really real and all of

1932
01:16:58,250 --> 01:16:55,199
this is an illusion and they then they

1933
01:17:00,410 --> 01:16:58,260
say I'm the must is not

1934
01:17:03,830 --> 01:17:00,420
a compulsive must it's what I call

1935
01:17:06,709 --> 01:17:03,840
autonomativity that they I need I need I

1936
01:17:08,630 --> 01:17:06,719
profoundly need to change who I am and

1937
01:17:10,310 --> 01:17:08,640
how I relate to the world maybe my

1938
01:17:11,630 --> 01:17:10,320
occupation my career they will

1939
01:17:14,090 --> 01:17:11,640
profoundly change their lives because

1940
01:17:16,790 --> 01:17:14,100
they want to be closer to that really

1941
01:17:19,550 --> 01:17:16,800
real they want to conform more to it and

1942
01:17:20,570 --> 01:17:19,560
yayden's work shows by many objective

1943
01:17:23,270 --> 01:17:20,580
measures

1944
01:17:26,510 --> 01:17:23,280
their lives get better uh that's what I

1945
01:17:27,770 --> 01:17:26,520
mean by a transformative and uh Steve

1946
01:17:30,290 --> 01:17:27,780
Taylor has a book I think it's called

1947
01:17:32,030 --> 01:17:30,300
waking up where he taught canvases all

1948
01:17:33,350 --> 01:17:32,040
of this it's not it's not it's not a

1949
01:17:35,450 --> 01:17:33,360
scientifically profound book but it's

1950
01:17:38,030 --> 01:17:35,460
great for just Gathering all these

1951
01:17:41,570 --> 01:17:38,040
accounts together now it's extraordinary

1952
01:17:43,910 --> 01:17:41,580
how commonly is experiences of

1953
01:17:46,610 --> 01:17:43,920
um well it even can be described as

1954
01:17:47,810 --> 01:17:46,620
encounters with God actually by a lot of

1955
01:17:49,729 --> 01:17:47,820
people even though they don't

1956
01:17:51,770 --> 01:17:49,739
necessarily believe in God at all but

1957
01:17:53,990 --> 01:17:51,780
they call them encounters with God or

1958
01:17:55,250 --> 01:17:54,000
with the cosmos with the ultimate truth

1959
01:17:56,930 --> 01:17:55,260
or whatever it is and they're

1960
01:17:59,930 --> 01:17:56,940
surprisingly common

1961
01:18:02,870 --> 01:17:59,940
well and and they are not predicted by

1962
01:18:05,570 --> 01:18:02,880
any kind of mental disorder and neither

1963
01:18:07,910 --> 01:18:05,580
neither do they generate any kind of men

1964
01:18:09,709 --> 01:18:07,920
no yeah no no the very important point

1965
01:18:12,229 --> 01:18:09,719
you've already made which is that when

1966
01:18:14,450 --> 01:18:12,239
people have hallucinations and delusions

1967
01:18:16,189 --> 01:18:14,460
when they're better they count them as

1968
01:18:18,590 --> 01:18:16,199
unreal and they see that they're better

1969
01:18:20,570 --> 01:18:18,600
off without them but after these

1970
01:18:23,630 --> 01:18:20,580
experiences they don't they they think

1971
01:18:26,510 --> 01:18:23,640
this is the this was the reality and it

1972
01:18:28,729 --> 01:18:26,520
often has long-term uh changing effects

1973
01:18:30,530 --> 01:18:28,739
on their lives exactly as you say so

1974
01:18:32,209 --> 01:18:30,540
it's something that needs to be taken

1975
01:18:33,770 --> 01:18:32,219
seriously and there is research and some

1976
01:18:36,350 --> 01:18:33,780
of it you've probably been mentioning

1977
01:18:39,050 --> 01:18:36,360
which which shows how very real and

1978
01:18:41,630 --> 01:18:39,060
important this is so we discount this

1979
01:18:43,729 --> 01:18:41,640
um because we're told that clever people

1980
01:18:46,070 --> 01:18:43,739
bright people intelligent people don't

1981
01:18:48,709 --> 01:18:46,080
think like this it's just some

1982
01:18:51,410 --> 01:18:48,719
um ill effect of something misbehaving

1983
01:18:54,770 --> 01:18:51,420
in one's brain but it it's not an

1984
01:18:57,110 --> 01:18:54,780
adequate account yeah and I I go over

1985
01:18:59,330 --> 01:18:57,120
both I've given talks on this a

1986
01:19:00,709 --> 01:18:59,340
conferences I go over it in Awakening

1987
01:19:03,350 --> 01:19:00,719
for the meeting crisis on higher States

1988
01:19:06,169 --> 01:19:03,360
Of Consciousness I've talked about it at

1989
01:19:09,169 --> 01:19:06,179
Yale Etc you can make a very good case

1990
01:19:10,790 --> 01:19:09,179
for this is actually a justifiable claim

1991
01:19:12,410 --> 01:19:10,800
I mean well

1992
01:19:14,750 --> 01:19:12,420
um I don't hang too much on the

1993
01:19:16,669 --> 01:19:14,760
propositions they come back with because

1994
01:19:19,669 --> 01:19:16,679
the propositions vary all over the place

1995
01:19:22,490 --> 01:19:19,679
but that sense I've done an experiment

1996
01:19:24,590 --> 01:19:22,500
in my lab where we like what's the

1997
01:19:26,209 --> 01:19:24,600
relationship nobody did this which we

1998
01:19:27,950 --> 01:19:26,219
thought I thought was astonishing is

1999
01:19:29,630 --> 01:19:27,960
there a correlation between having

2000
01:19:31,130 --> 01:19:29,640
mystical experiences and how meaningful

2001
01:19:32,630 --> 01:19:31,140
you find your life you would have

2002
01:19:34,790 --> 01:19:32,640
thought somebody had bothered to test

2003
01:19:36,410 --> 01:19:34,800
that it shows you the ignorance of our

2004
01:19:38,990 --> 01:19:36,420
orientation that that has not never even

2005
01:19:41,090 --> 01:19:39,000
been tested we tested it a huge amateur

2006
01:19:44,030 --> 01:19:41,100
study it is predictive it's Coral it's

2007
01:19:46,250 --> 01:19:44,040
correlative right and but it's not the

2008
01:19:48,709 --> 01:19:46,260
particular phenomenology phenomological

2009
01:19:51,050 --> 01:19:48,719
content it's the Insight Machinery it's

2010
01:19:53,390 --> 01:19:51,060
it's very much in a continue think about

2011
01:19:55,550 --> 01:19:53,400
when you have an Insight right and you

2012
01:19:57,530 --> 01:19:55,560
oh and then you know why you were wrong

2013
01:19:59,689 --> 01:19:57,540
before but you can't know that that

2014
01:20:02,149 --> 01:19:59,699
until you go through it right it's it's

2015
01:20:05,169 --> 01:20:02,159
that it's that kind of thing it's like

2016
01:20:07,970 --> 01:20:05,179
it's like a it's like a a systemic

2017
01:20:10,430 --> 01:20:07,980
insight and a systematic insight and

2018
01:20:12,530 --> 01:20:10,440
what's interesting is that the area in

2019
01:20:15,110 --> 01:20:12,540
which we have our moments the right

2020
01:20:17,410 --> 01:20:15,120
Superior temporal gyrus and sulcus is

2021
01:20:20,090 --> 01:20:17,420
very close to the area that has been

2022
01:20:22,010 --> 01:20:20,100
repeatedly found to be associated with

2023
01:20:25,310 --> 01:20:22,020
transformative religious experience

2024
01:20:28,070 --> 01:20:25,320
exactly the right temporary parietal

2025
01:20:31,750 --> 01:20:28,080
Junction effectively so I mean that's

2026
01:20:34,490 --> 01:20:31,760
interesting at every level but I feel

2027
01:20:36,290 --> 01:20:34,500
Kurt you need to help us reorientate

2028
01:20:38,209 --> 01:20:36,300
because we're talking about things that

2029
01:20:40,189 --> 01:20:38,219
well I just wanna I just wanted to talk

2030
01:20:43,130 --> 01:20:40,199
about I just wanted to follow up though

2031
01:20:45,530 --> 01:20:43,140
because right if we agree that this is a

2032
01:20:47,450 --> 01:20:45,540
real phenomena and if we agree that it's

2033
01:20:51,530 --> 01:20:47,460
not hallucinatory or something that we

2034
01:20:53,030 --> 01:20:51,540
can dismiss then like and then if we can

2035
01:20:55,370 --> 01:20:53,040
also find you know first of all if we

2036
01:20:58,250 --> 01:20:55,380
can support that culturally and also

2037
01:20:59,990 --> 01:20:58,260
watch people unfolding exemplary lives

2038
01:21:02,689 --> 01:21:00,000
this is sort of the socratic proposal

2039
01:21:03,950 --> 01:21:02,699
don't you know you know you know here's

2040
01:21:05,750 --> 01:21:03,960
a beautiful life

2041
01:21:07,370 --> 01:21:05,760
right the unexamined life is not worth

2042
01:21:08,990 --> 01:21:07,380
living here's a here's a beautiful life

2043
01:21:11,090 --> 01:21:09,000
and I think that's the kind of thing

2044
01:21:13,310 --> 01:21:11,100
that can attract people into what we're

2045
01:21:15,110 --> 01:21:13,320
talking about I I agree we can't we

2046
01:21:17,689 --> 01:21:15,120
can't give them here's how you do it but

2047
01:21:19,910 --> 01:21:17,699
what we can do we can we can cultivate

2048
01:21:22,250 --> 01:21:19,920
cultivate the people who are living

2049
01:21:24,110 --> 01:21:22,260
exemplary lives and create you know

2050
01:21:25,970 --> 01:21:24,120
communities where they Thrive that

2051
01:21:29,810 --> 01:21:25,980
attract people I propose we could do

2052
01:21:31,490 --> 01:21:29,820
that I I agree in in a way you've you've

2053
01:21:33,290 --> 01:21:31,500
given a description of what I aim to do

2054
01:21:35,209 --> 01:21:33,300
in my work which is to take people where

2055
01:21:37,189 --> 01:21:35,219
they see this is a beautiful vision of

2056
01:21:39,229 --> 01:21:37,199
life and it makes much more sense

2057
01:21:41,209 --> 01:21:39,239
okay so here's what an atheist may say

2058
01:21:42,950 --> 01:21:41,219
or an extremely staunched materialist

2059
01:21:45,530 --> 01:21:42,960
may say that sure you had an experience

2060
01:21:47,750 --> 01:21:45,540
of something real but your experiences

2061
01:21:50,209 --> 01:21:47,760
can be misleading and just because you

2062
01:21:52,130 --> 01:21:50,219
had potentially some psychedelic and you

2063
01:21:53,649 --> 01:21:52,140
feel like so-and-so is real well that

2064
01:21:56,510 --> 01:21:53,659
can be triggered let's say with

2065
01:21:58,130 --> 01:21:56,520
transcranial stimulation and other

2066
01:22:00,110 --> 01:21:58,140
methods so I can make you feel like

2067
01:22:02,510 --> 01:22:00,120
something's real when it's not so why

2068
01:22:04,550 --> 01:22:02,520
attribute realness to it just say it was

2069
01:22:06,649 --> 01:22:04,560
interesting so here's an example Sam

2070
01:22:08,330 --> 01:22:06,659
Harris said that he took an extreme

2071
01:22:09,590 --> 01:22:08,340
amount of mushrooms I'm not saying

2072
01:22:11,270 --> 01:22:09,600
anything that he hasn't said publicly

2073
01:22:13,189 --> 01:22:11,280
and then blindfolded himself went into a

2074
01:22:15,770 --> 01:22:13,199
room and he said he felt like he was

2075
01:22:18,709 --> 01:22:15,780
encountering something else but then

2076
01:22:21,590 --> 01:22:18,719
during and afterward he said well I was

2077
01:22:23,689 --> 01:22:21,600
saying well this is just me on drugs and

2078
01:22:25,370 --> 01:22:23,699
so I allowed it to take me whatever it

2079
01:22:27,770 --> 01:22:25,380
was some tiger or some other being I

2080
01:22:30,229 --> 01:22:27,780
allowed it to take me from realm to

2081
01:22:32,330 --> 01:22:30,239
realm but I didn't describe any realness

2082
01:22:35,149 --> 01:22:32,340
to it that also reminded me of this

2083
01:22:37,189 --> 01:22:35,159
quote I believe Ian you mentioned it the

2084
01:22:38,750 --> 01:22:37,199
last time you and John spoke on the

2085
01:22:41,630 --> 01:22:38,760
podcast

2086
01:22:43,850 --> 01:22:41,640
from Cars someone who Heidegger said was

2087
01:22:44,870 --> 01:22:43,860
the most important philosopher I don't

2088
01:22:47,270 --> 01:22:44,880
know if I'm pronouncing the name

2089
01:22:49,370 --> 01:22:47,280
correctly well James cause I didn't know

2090
01:22:51,290 --> 01:22:49,380
that how do you get a new cars I I think

2091
01:22:52,669 --> 01:22:51,300
it's a different person okay okay you

2092
01:22:54,350 --> 01:22:52,679
said that Heidegger spoke at his funeral

2093
01:22:56,870 --> 01:22:54,360
John he said Heidegger spoke at his

2094
01:23:00,229 --> 01:22:56,880
funeral oh no that's that's Max Shayla

2095
01:23:03,590 --> 01:23:00,239
okay with Heidegger spoke at Max

2096
01:23:05,870 --> 01:23:03,600
shayla's Funeral and said that that Max

2097
01:23:08,570 --> 01:23:05,880
Shayla was the greatest European

2098
01:23:11,450 --> 01:23:08,580
philosopher of his Generation

2099
01:23:15,229 --> 01:23:11,460
Um which was uncharacteristically humble

2100
01:23:18,590 --> 01:23:17,149
I think the connection was uh

2101
01:23:20,630 --> 01:23:18,600
reconstructive memory I had mentioned

2102
01:23:23,090 --> 01:23:20,640
that cars had just recently died I

2103
01:23:25,010 --> 01:23:23,100
believe oh so okay and then okay yeah

2104
01:23:26,990 --> 01:23:25,020
and that's uh that your memory put them

2105
01:23:30,290 --> 01:23:27,000
together in that fashion yeah yeah okay

2106
01:23:32,390 --> 01:23:30,300
so my two points are then Shaler perhaps

2107
01:23:34,430 --> 01:23:32,400
said I think it's trailer that you need

2108
01:23:35,810 --> 01:23:34,440
to open yourself up to knowledge rather

2109
01:23:37,970 --> 01:23:35,820
than having knowledge change you

2110
01:23:40,130 --> 01:23:37,980
something like that and it made me think

2111
01:23:44,750 --> 01:23:40,140
okay is it that someone like Sam Harris

2112
01:23:46,430 --> 01:23:44,760
is so closed to the Divine that even if

2113
01:23:48,290 --> 01:23:46,440
he encounters it he wouldn't see it and

2114
01:23:49,669 --> 01:23:48,300
he discounts it well that was just one

2115
01:23:50,689 --> 01:23:49,679
thought that came through my head and

2116
01:23:52,130 --> 01:23:50,699
then the next one was where it's

2117
01:23:53,709 --> 01:23:52,140
focusing so much on the nourishing

2118
01:23:56,270 --> 01:23:53,719
effects of these mystical experiences

2119
01:24:00,169 --> 01:23:56,280
but there is such a thing as totalizing

2120
01:24:01,850 --> 01:24:00,179
fear Terror and horror bad trips for

2121
01:24:04,189 --> 01:24:01,860
example whether or not they're even

2122
01:24:05,570 --> 01:24:04,199
trips and so then what's happening there

2123
01:24:07,550 --> 01:24:05,580
where one feels like yes what I've

2124
01:24:09,890 --> 01:24:07,560
encountered is real and I'm terrified

2125
01:24:11,330 --> 01:24:09,900
and I don't want that so those are two

2126
01:24:13,310 --> 01:24:11,340
separate points that I just wanted to

2127
01:24:15,050 --> 01:24:13,320
lay out there as potential jumping off I

2128
01:24:16,550 --> 01:24:15,060
think I think they're related but I'll

2129
01:24:18,530 --> 01:24:16,560
add and go first I think they are

2130
01:24:21,169 --> 01:24:18,540
related points yeah yeah maybe they are

2131
01:24:24,830 --> 01:24:21,179
and I think on the first point

2132
01:24:26,810 --> 01:24:24,840
um I would say uh yes of course

2133
01:24:30,530 --> 01:24:26,820
um things that one

2134
01:24:33,470 --> 01:24:30,540
um once one's mind brings before one may

2135
01:24:36,830 --> 01:24:33,480
be deceptive but there but then often

2136
01:24:38,930 --> 01:24:36,840
they're also real and it's not it's not

2137
01:24:41,209 --> 01:24:38,940
enough to say well we just dismiss it

2138
01:24:42,770 --> 01:24:41,219
because sometimes it's going to produce

2139
01:24:46,130 --> 01:24:42,780
something very important and sometimes

2140
01:24:49,310 --> 01:24:46,140
it isn't the same is true of every way

2141
01:24:50,630 --> 01:24:49,320
of arriving at knowledge reason can lead

2142
01:24:52,610 --> 01:24:50,640
you down

2143
01:24:54,050 --> 01:24:52,620
um blind at it or what I call

2144
01:24:57,169 --> 01:24:54,060
rationality

2145
01:25:00,169 --> 01:24:57,179
um leading one's life by pure logic

2146
01:25:01,270 --> 01:25:00,179
um reduces it to to a meaningless mess

2147
01:25:03,649 --> 01:25:01,280
as

2148
01:25:05,689 --> 01:25:03,659
demacio's description of a patient

2149
01:25:08,510 --> 01:25:05,699
called Elliot he had to work everything

2150
01:25:10,790 --> 01:25:08,520
out from first principles yeah it had no

2151
01:25:12,290 --> 01:25:10,800
understanding of Life whatever so recent

2152
01:25:14,930 --> 01:25:12,300
but I wouldn't say well in that case I'm

2153
01:25:16,790 --> 01:25:14,940
not going to use the reason and I I have

2154
01:25:19,310 --> 01:25:16,800
the same same view about intuition you

2155
01:25:21,350 --> 01:25:19,320
know psychologists are amused by

2156
01:25:23,270 --> 01:25:21,360
developing very clever little scenarios

2157
01:25:25,850 --> 01:25:23,280
in which one's normally extremely

2158
01:25:27,350 --> 01:25:25,860
helpful intuition is deceived there are

2159
01:25:29,990 --> 01:25:27,360
going to be such things I can show you

2160
01:25:32,090 --> 01:25:30,000
optical illusions that are completely

2161
01:25:34,130 --> 01:25:32,100
unbelievable are those two squares on

2162
01:25:37,070 --> 01:25:34,140
that checkerboard really the same they

2163
01:25:38,570 --> 01:25:37,080
can't be but they are but I've never

2164
01:25:40,250 --> 01:25:38,580
heard anyone after seeing a very good

2165
01:25:41,689 --> 01:25:40,260
optical illusion say well that does it

2166
01:25:43,250 --> 01:25:41,699
I'm not going to use my open my eyes

2167
01:25:45,070 --> 01:25:43,260
then from now forwards because they

2168
01:25:47,750 --> 01:25:45,080
might be wrong so

2169
01:25:49,610 --> 01:25:47,760
the the mode in which something comes to

2170
01:25:51,669 --> 01:25:49,620
one doesn't say either it's got to be

2171
01:25:54,590 --> 01:25:51,679
right or it's got to be wrong we need to

2172
01:25:57,050 --> 01:25:54,600
examine the experience see what its

2173
01:25:59,090 --> 01:25:57,060
effects on us are and and what I'm

2174
01:26:01,010 --> 01:25:59,100
suggesting is that experiences that have

2175
01:26:02,870 --> 01:26:01,020
long lasting benign effects from

2176
01:26:05,629 --> 01:26:02,880
somebody

2177
01:26:07,610 --> 01:26:05,639
oh not nothing and they are good which

2178
01:26:10,010 --> 01:26:07,620
is what the person believes they are

2179
01:26:11,750 --> 01:26:10,020
because what we're going to say is the

2180
01:26:13,430 --> 01:26:11,760
definition of this good experience if

2181
01:26:15,790 --> 01:26:13,440
it's not that it leads to good

2182
01:26:18,770 --> 01:26:15,800
consequences so

2183
01:26:20,990 --> 01:26:18,780
it's easy to dismiss things but that's

2184
01:26:23,270 --> 01:26:21,000
the lazy way you have to actually say

2185
01:26:25,550 --> 01:26:23,280
well some things no doubt deserve to be

2186
01:26:28,430 --> 01:26:25,560
dismissed some things don't

2187
01:26:30,590 --> 01:26:28,440
uh anyway

2188
01:26:33,590 --> 01:26:30,600
well I I want to buttress that first of

2189
01:26:35,629 --> 01:26:33,600
all yeah uh I I was thought I was not

2190
01:26:37,070 --> 01:26:35,639
reporting to argue give an argument from

2191
01:26:39,229 --> 01:26:37,080
the authority of a particular kind of

2192
01:26:41,629 --> 01:26:39,239
experience I think I think our culture

2193
01:26:43,669 --> 01:26:41,639
is I I don't think he desired I I think

2194
01:26:45,890 --> 01:26:43,679
our culture is beset by trying to find

2195
01:26:48,050 --> 01:26:45,900
the magical faculty that will give us

2196
01:26:50,870 --> 01:26:48,060
certainty this is a Cartesian wet dream

2197
01:26:52,970 --> 01:26:50,880
that we should abandon once and for all

2198
01:26:55,129 --> 01:26:52,980
um and also the other the other project

2199
01:26:57,110 --> 01:26:55,139
which is just this the flip side of it

2200
01:26:58,910 --> 01:26:57,120
finding the part the faculty that we

2201
01:27:00,649 --> 01:26:58,920
should demonize and scapegoat for all of

2202
01:27:01,970 --> 01:27:00,659
our failures I think we should give up

2203
01:27:04,430 --> 01:27:01,980
both of those projects they don't

2204
01:27:06,169 --> 01:27:04,440
comport well with how cognition works or

2205
01:27:07,729 --> 01:27:06,179
intelligence works or Consciousness

2206
01:27:09,169 --> 01:27:07,739
works so and I'm not saying you're

2207
01:27:11,450 --> 01:27:09,179
saying that Kurt I'm just responding to

2208
01:27:12,950 --> 01:27:11,460
your proposed uh perspective from The

2209
01:27:14,510 --> 01:27:12,960
Atheist

2210
01:27:17,629 --> 01:27:14,520
um secondly

2211
01:27:19,310 --> 01:27:17,639
um I said I I am suspicious of the

2212
01:27:21,050 --> 01:27:19,320
claims the propositional claims that

2213
01:27:23,149 --> 01:27:21,060
come out of the content of these

2214
01:27:25,070 --> 01:27:23,159
experience precisely because they vary

2215
01:27:27,890 --> 01:27:25,080
in the way you say

2216
01:27:30,470 --> 01:27:27,900
um what I make an argument for is we

2217
01:27:33,709 --> 01:27:30,480
have good reason and to believe that

2218
01:27:36,470 --> 01:27:33,719
these experiences are actually on a

2219
01:27:38,990 --> 01:27:36,480
Continuum with Insight experiences flow

2220
01:27:42,169 --> 01:27:39,000
experiences experiences by which we are

2221
01:27:45,110 --> 01:27:42,179
optimally sort of getting a a meta

2222
01:27:48,590 --> 01:27:45,120
optimal grip on the world uh where where

2223
01:27:51,530 --> 01:27:48,600
we are engaging in a kind of direct

2224
01:27:54,050 --> 01:27:51,540
sensory motor feedback with the world

2225
01:27:57,050 --> 01:27:54,060
Etc yes Harris is right there probably

2226
01:27:59,090 --> 01:27:57,060
is no tiger in the room what was he but

2227
01:28:00,830 --> 01:27:59,100
he doesn't bother to ask what might have

2228
01:28:03,229 --> 01:28:00,840
been happening

2229
01:28:05,810 --> 01:28:03,239
he just says well here's the proposition

2230
01:28:08,870 --> 01:28:05,820
that I came up with it's false therefore

2231
01:28:11,450 --> 01:28:08,880
everything was wrong well how do we know

2232
01:28:13,490 --> 01:28:11,460
how do we know what like why doesn't he

2233
01:28:15,410 --> 01:28:13,500
bother to ask why is a tiger being

2234
01:28:17,090 --> 01:28:15,420
thrown up in my altered perception of

2235
01:28:19,610 --> 01:28:17,100
the room

2236
01:28:23,030 --> 01:28:19,620
yeah there's no tiger there but what if

2237
01:28:26,450 --> 01:28:23,040
you were to say what what if what's that

2238
01:28:28,970 --> 01:28:26,460
the the very Act of coming up with the

2239
01:28:31,310 --> 01:28:28,980
tiger was connecting areas of cognition

2240
01:28:33,229 --> 01:28:31,320
that if he bothered to explore could

2241
01:28:35,930 --> 01:28:33,239
give him some more fundamental insight

2242
01:28:37,850 --> 01:28:35,940
into how he is perceiving or framing

2243
01:28:39,890 --> 01:28:37,860
things that's how many people within

2244
01:28:41,270 --> 01:28:39,900
these wisdom Traditions would respond to

2245
01:28:43,729 --> 01:28:41,280
him they would say well why did you stop

2246
01:28:45,470 --> 01:28:43,739
there why did you stop there why did you

2247
01:28:47,390 --> 01:28:45,480
why why didn't you talk to other people

2248
01:28:48,530 --> 01:28:47,400
and I mean when you when you're when

2249
01:28:50,930 --> 01:28:48,540
you're trying to determine if anything

2250
01:28:53,750 --> 01:28:50,940
else is real you stop after one moment

2251
01:28:57,110 --> 01:28:53,760
of thought or do you do do you do a lot

2252
01:28:58,310 --> 01:28:57,120
of science yeah firstly just to clarify

2253
01:28:59,990 --> 01:28:58,320
for the record I don't know if what he's

2254
01:29:01,669 --> 01:29:00,000
encountered was a tiger but it was some

2255
01:29:03,350 --> 01:29:01,679
other creature or being and I don't want

2256
01:29:05,930 --> 01:29:03,360
to spread misinformation but that's that

2257
01:29:07,129 --> 01:29:05,940
and then third and then secondly you

2258
01:29:10,250 --> 01:29:07,139
mentioned why didn't you talk to other

2259
01:29:12,709 --> 01:29:10,260
people okay interesting I was speaking

2260
01:29:14,689 --> 01:29:12,719
to Diana pasoka who's a professor of

2261
01:29:16,729 --> 01:29:14,699
religion and she was saying Kurt

2262
01:29:17,689 --> 01:29:16,739
something that's missing in all of these

2263
01:29:20,030 --> 01:29:17,699
modern

2264
01:29:21,709 --> 01:29:20,040
forms of religion which are spiritual

2265
01:29:24,890 --> 01:29:21,719
but not religious

2266
01:29:26,990 --> 01:29:24,900
is Sangha so a community yes totally

2267
01:29:29,990 --> 01:29:27,000
totally that's what I mean by Auto

2268
01:29:32,030 --> 01:29:30,000
didactic she said that that's even the

2269
01:29:34,070 --> 01:29:32,040
answer to Plato's Cave

2270
01:29:35,030 --> 01:29:34,080
then I asked her well is that in Plato's

2271
01:29:37,669 --> 01:29:35,040
Cave she said no it's in the Republic

2272
01:29:39,530 --> 01:29:37,679
and she gave me some explanation but

2273
01:29:42,470 --> 01:29:39,540
regardless from my understanding of the

2274
01:29:44,149 --> 01:29:42,480
non-theist position or neoplatonism I

2275
01:29:46,129 --> 01:29:44,159
think Peugeot says you can't simply

2276
01:29:48,530 --> 01:29:46,139
resurrect a religion from reading books

2277
01:29:50,030 --> 01:29:48,540
how is it that we become neoplatonists

2278
01:29:51,830 --> 01:29:50,040
is it truly a religion that you're

2279
01:29:52,850 --> 01:29:51,840
enacting well first of all I want to I

2280
01:29:54,709 --> 01:29:52,860
want to first of all pick up on the

2281
01:29:56,930 --> 01:29:54,719
first point yeah I don't mean to be

2282
01:29:58,910 --> 01:29:56,940
misspeaking if I'm incorrectly no no no

2283
01:30:00,770 --> 01:29:58,920
no no no no no no no no no no no no I

2284
01:30:02,270 --> 01:30:00,780
mean this is this is all this is at the

2285
01:30:03,830 --> 01:30:02,280
core of the whole dialectic and to deal

2286
01:30:06,410 --> 01:30:03,840
with this project that I've engaged in

2287
01:30:08,209 --> 01:30:06,420
the after Socrates the which is

2288
01:30:10,729 --> 01:30:08,219
convergent from with all of this

2289
01:30:14,030 --> 01:30:10,739
increasing information that when people

2290
01:30:17,270 --> 01:30:14,040
are that reason I'll use Ian's word then

2291
01:30:20,169 --> 01:30:17,280
is uh evolved to be carried out

2292
01:30:21,950 --> 01:30:20,179
dialogically not monologically

2293
01:30:24,530 --> 01:30:21,960
multi-perspectively not model

2294
01:30:28,070 --> 01:30:24,540
perspectival right that we do not have a

2295
01:30:28,790 --> 01:30:28,080
magnetic self we have a fluid etc etc

2296
01:30:30,890 --> 01:30:28,800
etc

2297
01:30:32,090 --> 01:30:30,900
what's some of that evidence okay you

2298
01:30:35,090 --> 01:30:32,100
are you're familiar with the wasted

2299
01:30:37,310 --> 01:30:35,100
selection fast right people smart

2300
01:30:38,510 --> 01:30:37,320
educated people you give them a very

2301
01:30:40,729 --> 01:30:38,520
simple

2302
01:30:42,530 --> 01:30:40,739
reasoning experiment and only 10 of them

2303
01:30:45,470 --> 01:30:42,540
get it right reliably no replication

2304
01:30:47,870 --> 01:30:45,480
crisis on this robustly take the exact

2305
01:30:49,070 --> 01:30:47,880
same thing Let There be four people and

2306
01:30:52,070 --> 01:30:49,080
they're allowed to talk to each other

2307
01:30:55,550 --> 01:30:52,080
the success rate goes reliably from 10

2308
01:30:58,070 --> 01:30:55,560
to 80 yeah reliably that is and that is

2309
01:31:00,110 --> 01:30:58,080
not exhaustive read uh the Enigma of

2310
01:31:02,149 --> 01:31:00,120
Reason by Mercer and spur bear others

2311
01:31:04,370 --> 01:31:02,159
this just overwhelming evidence that we

2312
01:31:08,810 --> 01:31:04,380
have we have this mana and that's my

2313
01:31:11,390 --> 01:31:08,820
point to to Harris never questions I

2314
01:31:13,189 --> 01:31:11,400
mean at least the Harris of your example

2315
01:31:15,050 --> 01:31:13,199
maybe it's not the actual Harris right

2316
01:31:17,209 --> 01:31:15,060
but I I don't want it that's the name

2317
01:31:20,390 --> 01:31:17,219
I'm going to use this right he doesn't

2318
01:31:22,610 --> 01:31:20,400
question the monological frame from

2319
01:31:24,530 --> 01:31:22,620
which he is giving an answer and the

2320
01:31:27,790 --> 01:31:24,540
point is well

2321
01:31:30,110 --> 01:31:27,800
that's not how reason evolved to work

2322
01:31:32,530 --> 01:31:30,120
reasons should be carried out and this

2323
01:31:34,790 --> 01:31:32,540
is a I think the core Socratic claim

2324
01:31:37,010 --> 01:31:34,800
dialogically no there's dialogue there's

2325
01:31:39,229 --> 01:31:37,020
the theologos with other people

2326
01:31:42,470 --> 01:31:39,239
but you also have to practice the deal

2327
01:31:44,689 --> 01:31:42,480
logos within the psyche this is again a

2328
01:31:46,790 --> 01:31:44,699
proper platonic idea and those two

2329
01:31:49,010 --> 01:31:46,800
dialogues those two forms of deal logos

2330
01:31:52,729 --> 01:31:49,020
they have to be resonant with each other

2331
01:31:57,470 --> 01:31:52,739
in a profound way and for me that is

2332
01:32:00,770 --> 01:31:57,480
that is most properly how to try and be

2333
01:32:03,410 --> 01:32:00,780
as reasonable as I possibly can Will it

2334
01:32:05,149 --> 01:32:03,420
give me certainty no but as Ian said

2335
01:32:07,310 --> 01:32:05,159
nothing does

2336
01:32:09,050 --> 01:32:07,320
right if your criteria is well that

2337
01:32:11,209 --> 01:32:09,060
could fail therefore I reject it then

2338
01:32:13,970 --> 01:32:11,219
you are an absolute soul of cystic

2339
01:32:15,890 --> 01:32:13,980
skeptic and then if you and if I ask you

2340
01:32:17,930 --> 01:32:15,900
okay what do you do to well I talk to

2341
01:32:20,330 --> 01:32:17,940
other people I reflect them I ask

2342
01:32:22,189 --> 01:32:20,340
questions I like well do that with these

2343
01:32:23,689 --> 01:32:22,199
experiences too nobody's telling you

2344
01:32:26,209 --> 01:32:23,699
take the experience and then just accept

2345
01:32:28,189 --> 01:32:26,219
it take these experiences put them in

2346
01:32:30,350 --> 01:32:28,199
this framework make sure independent of

2347
01:32:32,570 --> 01:32:30,360
this Frame of these experience that this

2348
01:32:35,870 --> 01:32:32,580
framework is working profoundly to help

2349
01:32:38,149 --> 01:32:35,880
you self-correct catch your bias catch

2350
01:32:40,850 --> 01:32:38,159
your flaws and then integrate the two

2351
01:32:44,030 --> 01:32:40,860
together and for me that's would make it

2352
01:32:45,610 --> 01:32:44,040
much more like a religion than just a

2353
01:32:47,689 --> 01:32:45,620
belief system in the modern

2354
01:32:49,430 --> 01:32:47,699
Enlightenment sense of a belief system

2355
01:32:51,350 --> 01:32:49,440
did that answer your question Kurt

2356
01:32:52,910 --> 01:32:51,360
generally it takes me days of reflection

2357
01:32:53,810 --> 01:32:52,920
to realize if something answered my

2358
01:32:55,669 --> 01:32:53,820
question

2359
01:32:57,169 --> 01:32:55,679
fair enough that's exactly that's

2360
01:32:58,209 --> 01:32:57,179
exactly right that's exactly the right

2361
01:33:02,450 --> 01:32:58,219
answer

2362
01:33:05,110 --> 01:33:02,460
no I I just think your point no well

2363
01:33:08,030 --> 01:33:05,120
first of all I think that it cannot be

2364
01:33:11,750 --> 01:33:08,040
overstated how important that point of

2365
01:33:14,330 --> 01:33:11,760
community is at the core of religion and

2366
01:33:15,709 --> 01:33:14,340
it's what is one of the roots of what we

2367
01:33:18,229 --> 01:33:15,719
started by talking about the meaning

2368
01:33:20,149 --> 01:33:18,239
crisis yes meaning is held by

2369
01:33:23,450 --> 01:33:20,159
communities that have common history of

2370
01:33:26,450 --> 01:33:23,460
common narrative common myths and a

2371
01:33:27,950 --> 01:33:26,460
sense of belonging which is you know you

2372
01:33:32,629 --> 01:33:27,960
talked I think

2373
01:33:34,729 --> 01:33:32,639
um about uh John about the um I I don't

2374
01:33:35,810 --> 01:33:34,739
know what you called it D domiciled or

2375
01:33:37,970 --> 01:33:35,820
something but I mean if they can't

2376
01:33:40,430 --> 01:33:37,980
decide yeah yeah we know we no longer

2377
01:33:43,430 --> 01:33:40,440
have a home we no longer feel we belong

2378
01:33:45,350 --> 01:33:43,440
somewhere and that sense of belonging is

2379
01:33:47,510 --> 01:33:45,360
part of meaning and one gets it from

2380
01:33:49,669 --> 01:33:47,520
belonging to a functional family and

2381
01:33:52,129 --> 01:33:49,679
belonging to a functional Society there

2382
01:33:55,729 --> 01:33:52,139
is no such thing as an atomistic

2383
01:33:57,770 --> 01:33:55,739
individual we emerge from society and we

2384
01:34:00,050 --> 01:33:57,780
give back to society and we're in

2385
01:34:02,270 --> 01:34:00,060
constant communion with society and what

2386
01:34:04,850 --> 01:34:02,280
a religion does is to strengthen those

2387
01:34:07,550 --> 01:34:04,860
bonds and the feelings of empathy which

2388
01:34:10,010 --> 01:34:07,560
lead to extraordinary effects on

2389
01:34:12,530 --> 01:34:10,020
cognition on emotion on well-being

2390
01:34:14,510 --> 01:34:12,540
including physical well-being and mental

2391
01:34:16,790 --> 01:34:14,520
well-being obviously and the evidence

2392
01:34:18,950 --> 01:34:16,800
about this is so strong and it's not

2393
01:34:22,070 --> 01:34:18,960
widely known but I give it in the very

2394
01:34:24,050 --> 01:34:22,080
last part of um of the matter with

2395
01:34:26,209 --> 01:34:24,060
things so I think that's a very good

2396
01:34:28,910 --> 01:34:26,219
point I think another point is that we

2397
01:34:32,090 --> 01:34:28,920
we shouldn't over emphasize the

2398
01:34:34,250 --> 01:34:32,100
importance of you know mystical moments

2399
01:34:35,629 --> 01:34:34,260
we may or may not have them I mean a

2400
01:34:37,669 --> 01:34:35,639
very important thing is that many

2401
01:34:39,530 --> 01:34:37,679
spiritual people have never experienced

2402
01:34:43,070 --> 01:34:39,540
these things but are deeply good and

2403
01:34:45,649 --> 01:34:43,080
wise so there are and many people who

2404
01:34:47,810 --> 01:34:45,659
have achieved that state say you know if

2405
01:34:49,910 --> 01:34:47,820
you have a some sort of a you know a

2406
01:34:51,649 --> 01:34:49,920
vision or something that's great but

2407
01:34:53,930 --> 01:34:51,659
really forget about it and go back to

2408
01:34:56,450 --> 01:34:53,940
getting on with religion so it's okay

2409
01:34:59,030 --> 01:34:56,460
the icing on the cake it's the in a way

2410
01:35:01,430 --> 01:34:59,040
it's slightly too much of a lure for

2411
01:35:03,590 --> 01:35:01,440
people nowadays oh you know I want some

2412
01:35:05,530 --> 01:35:03,600
Sensational experience but it's not

2413
01:35:07,910 --> 01:35:05,540
really about The Sensational experience

2414
01:35:10,610 --> 01:35:07,920
the next thing I'm sorry because I've

2415
01:35:13,310 --> 01:35:10,620
been holding back on a yeah yeah yeah

2416
01:35:15,350 --> 01:35:13,320
I'm trying to say them very very quickly

2417
01:35:17,390 --> 01:35:15,360
another is that I think that what

2418
01:35:19,010 --> 01:35:17,400
happens when one takes psychedelic drugs

2419
01:35:20,629 --> 01:35:19,020
people have sometimes said to me does

2420
01:35:23,450 --> 01:35:20,639
this not shut down the left hemisphere

2421
01:35:27,550 --> 01:35:23,460
and at least right not at all in fact um

2422
01:35:30,470 --> 01:35:27,560
most um aberrant versions or or

2423
01:35:33,050 --> 01:35:30,480
peculiar versions unusual versions of

2424
01:35:35,450 --> 01:35:33,060
reality in the sense of hallucination to

2425
01:35:37,310 --> 01:35:35,460
delusions Anyway come from the left

2426
01:35:39,890 --> 01:35:37,320
hemisphere something I go into the very

2427
01:35:42,350 --> 01:35:39,900
fast part of the matter with things but

2428
01:35:45,770 --> 01:35:42,360
I think what happens is that the frontal

2429
01:35:47,629 --> 01:35:45,780
lobes are relatively shut down and I

2430
01:35:50,810 --> 01:35:47,639
think there's Imaging evidence that this

2431
01:35:52,850 --> 01:35:50,820
is the case so this lower

2432
01:35:54,649 --> 01:35:52,860
um circulation in the frontal load and

2433
01:35:57,590 --> 01:35:54,659
of course what the frontal waves are

2434
01:36:00,290 --> 01:35:57,600
above all is a filter and when you stop

2435
01:36:03,169 --> 01:36:00,300
filtering what the brain is proving to

2436
01:36:04,910 --> 01:36:03,179
then you get good and bad you may be

2437
01:36:07,550 --> 01:36:04,920
lucky and have a good experience you may

2438
01:36:09,169 --> 01:36:07,560
have a terrible experience and in fact I

2439
01:36:11,149 --> 01:36:09,179
believe that terribly although the

2440
01:36:14,149 --> 01:36:11,159
literature tends to stress the good

2441
01:36:15,229 --> 01:36:14,159
experiences terrible experiences bad

2442
01:36:17,990 --> 01:36:15,239
trips

2443
01:36:19,490 --> 01:36:18,000
um under reported in the sense that

2444
01:36:21,110 --> 01:36:19,500
they're not talked about but they're

2445
01:36:23,930 --> 01:36:21,120
very real and they happen an awful lot

2446
01:36:25,490 --> 01:36:23,940
so I I just wanted to make you know a

2447
01:36:28,570 --> 01:36:25,500
few points that we're getting off too

2448
01:36:31,729 --> 01:36:28,580
much onto emphasizing you know the very

2449
01:36:34,129 --> 01:36:31,739
unusual and to go back to this idea of

2450
01:36:36,410 --> 01:36:34,139
imagination in which you see into things

2451
01:36:38,390 --> 01:36:36,420
that you thought you knew and then

2452
01:36:41,629 --> 01:36:38,400
realize that you know them for the very

2453
01:36:44,030 --> 01:36:41,639
first time and that experience is a

2454
01:36:46,070 --> 01:36:44,040
sacred experience

2455
01:36:48,110 --> 01:36:46,080
so I wanna I wanna pick up on two things

2456
01:36:51,110 --> 01:36:48,120
that Ian said

2457
01:36:52,250 --> 01:36:51,120
um that's what I that's what I meant

2458
01:36:54,410 --> 01:36:52,260
when I said I wasn't holding these

2459
01:36:55,610 --> 01:36:54,420
experiences up as authoritative and I'm

2460
01:36:58,010 --> 01:36:55,620
also not saying everybody should have

2461
01:37:00,890 --> 01:36:58,020
them what I'm saying is we need to have

2462
01:37:03,770 --> 01:37:00,900
ways of life that uh properly hone them

2463
01:37:05,750 --> 01:37:03,780
and that that are beautified by them I

2464
01:37:07,090 --> 01:37:05,760
don't think everybody has to have them

2465
01:37:13,850 --> 01:37:07,100
but

2466
01:37:15,890 --> 01:37:13,860
ways of life in which many people can

2467
01:37:19,010 --> 01:37:15,900
benefit from some people having them is

2468
01:37:21,110 --> 01:37:19,020
what I would say yes and then the second

2469
01:37:21,950 --> 01:37:21,120
thing I would say is

2470
01:37:24,950 --> 01:37:21,960
um

2471
01:37:27,709 --> 01:37:24,960
look uh you know you know this Kirk

2472
01:37:29,930 --> 01:37:27,719
neural network overfitting to the data

2473
01:37:32,689 --> 01:37:29,940
what do you have to do you have to do

2474
01:37:34,250 --> 01:37:32,699
Dropout turn off half the nodes or you

2475
01:37:37,430 --> 01:37:34,260
have to throw noise in or step into

2476
01:37:39,530 --> 01:37:37,440
Dixon people are impassing on any on an

2477
01:37:42,050 --> 01:37:39,540
Insight problem and you literally put

2478
01:37:45,229 --> 01:37:42,060
visual static into it and they get the

2479
01:37:47,270 --> 01:37:45,239
Insight or the the mild mind wandering

2480
01:37:49,669 --> 01:37:47,280
that helps people have an Insight yeah

2481
01:37:52,910 --> 01:37:49,679
you have to you you have to throw some

2482
01:37:55,189 --> 01:37:52,920
noise and the noise noise isn't

2483
01:37:56,990 --> 01:37:55,199
noise is noise it's destructive it's

2484
01:37:59,270 --> 01:37:57,000
frame breaking that's horrific that's

2485
01:38:02,450 --> 01:37:59,280
why you the the the the sacred always

2486
01:38:05,390 --> 01:38:02,460
has a terrific or horrific aspect to it

2487
01:38:08,209 --> 01:38:05,400
and eyes connected to awful

2488
01:38:09,770 --> 01:38:08,219
for good reason right but throw but you

2489
01:38:11,870 --> 01:38:09,780
you know the reverse if you don't ever

2490
01:38:14,689 --> 01:38:11,880
throw any noise into the neural network

2491
01:38:16,729 --> 01:38:14,699
what happens it overfits to the data it

2492
01:38:19,390 --> 01:38:16,739
doesn't generalize it fixates it gets

2493
01:38:21,950 --> 01:38:19,400
locked into a local minimum

2494
01:38:24,110 --> 01:38:21,960
Woodward and other people do that we

2495
01:38:26,149 --> 01:38:24,120
have we have you know we can have

2496
01:38:29,570 --> 01:38:26,159
psychedelic experiences or meditative

2497
01:38:32,030 --> 01:38:29,580
experiences or sensory motor experiences

2498
01:38:34,129 --> 01:38:32,040
that break that do that massive frame

2499
01:38:35,930 --> 01:38:34,139
breaking but it's not just a frame

2500
01:38:37,729 --> 01:38:35,940
breaking that I don't think people

2501
01:38:40,189 --> 01:38:37,739
should just have these experiences in

2502
01:38:44,030 --> 01:38:40,199
fact I'm arguing the exact opposite we

2503
01:38:46,790 --> 01:38:44,040
need to have a proper like a sapiential

2504
01:38:50,090 --> 01:38:46,800
sacred Community around them so that

2505
01:38:53,890 --> 01:38:50,100
that frame breaking is compensated with

2506
01:38:57,169 --> 01:38:53,900
a lot of resources for brain making

2507
01:38:58,729 --> 01:38:57,179
that's what I'm trying to propose that's

2508
01:39:01,729 --> 01:38:58,739
what I'm trying to propose

2509
01:39:03,830 --> 01:39:01,739
um I just wanted to comment briefly on I

2510
01:39:06,709 --> 01:39:03,840
agree with all that you said

2511
01:39:09,350 --> 01:39:06,719
um the the idea of putting interference

2512
01:39:10,790 --> 01:39:09,360
in is not that I just want to

2513
01:39:13,910 --> 01:39:10,800
distinguish between two possibilities

2514
01:39:17,750 --> 01:39:13,920
one I believe is wrong and that is the

2515
01:39:20,330 --> 01:39:17,760
idea that somehow distraction is what is

2516
01:39:23,390 --> 01:39:20,340
good going on there what is good there

2517
01:39:26,450 --> 01:39:23,400
is that you at last I'm not sure that

2518
01:39:28,610 --> 01:39:26,460
you know so we're constantly going

2519
01:39:30,110 --> 01:39:28,620
familiar familiar familiar I get it I

2520
01:39:32,209 --> 01:39:30,120
know what it is and that's a very

2521
01:39:33,590 --> 01:39:32,219
uncreative state that is what the left

2522
01:39:36,950 --> 01:39:33,600
hemisphere

2523
01:39:39,350 --> 01:39:36,960
um brings to us a representation of life

2524
01:39:43,390 --> 01:39:39,360
that is clear and comprehensible and

2525
01:39:46,430 --> 01:39:43,400
sanitized and what they in in

2526
01:39:48,350 --> 01:39:46,440
informational kind of distraction is is

2527
01:39:50,390 --> 01:39:48,360
it's not the distraction in itself it's

2528
01:39:52,090 --> 01:39:50,400
the the rattling of arcades that we

2529
01:39:54,470 --> 01:39:52,100
don't actually know what's going on here

2530
01:39:56,649 --> 01:39:54,480
exactly that's exactly that's exactly

2531
01:39:59,330 --> 01:39:56,659
what I'm saying

2532
01:40:00,530 --> 01:39:59,340
yeah I don't want I don't want I I don't

2533
01:40:02,570 --> 01:40:00,540
want Elliot's distracted from

2534
01:40:05,149 --> 01:40:02,580
distraction by Distraction what I meant

2535
01:40:07,669 --> 01:40:05,159
is like that that you disidentify from

2536
01:40:10,729 --> 01:40:07,679
the framing enough that it can break up

2537
01:40:12,350 --> 01:40:10,739
you put criticality exactly so it can

2538
01:40:14,689 --> 01:40:12,360
self-organize a new that's what I would

2539
01:40:16,910 --> 01:40:14,699
say I completely agree yeah

2540
01:40:19,790 --> 01:40:16,920
where does faith enter into this

2541
01:40:22,010 --> 01:40:19,800
when I hear much about unknowing I was

2542
01:40:24,229 --> 01:40:22,020
reading about Nicholas of kuza and

2543
01:40:25,850 --> 01:40:24,239
someone said either commentary on him or

2544
01:40:27,530 --> 01:40:25,860
he said you must strive upward

2545
01:40:30,770 --> 01:40:27,540
unknowingly where does faith enter into

2546
01:40:32,689 --> 01:40:30,780
this so what are you I know you have a

2547
01:40:36,709 --> 01:40:32,699
partner

2548
01:40:38,629 --> 01:40:36,719
um and you uh are you know what if I ask

2549
01:40:40,010 --> 01:40:38,639
you are you going to be faithful to her

2550
01:40:42,169 --> 01:40:40,020
and I'm not asking you to divulge

2551
01:40:44,570 --> 01:40:42,179
privacy right but are you talking to me

2552
01:40:46,610 --> 01:40:44,580
or are you I'm talking to you I mean you

2553
01:40:48,229 --> 01:40:46,620
you're you if you love somebody there is

2554
01:40:51,169 --> 01:40:48,239
a call to faithfulness does that mean

2555
01:40:53,450 --> 01:40:51,179
you have a complete account of them

2556
01:40:55,189 --> 01:40:53,460
no that's ridiculous does it mean you

2557
01:40:56,810 --> 01:40:55,199
have an absolute certainty about them no

2558
01:40:58,189 --> 01:40:56,820
they're going to surprise you again and

2559
01:41:00,410 --> 01:40:58,199
again and again meet people that have

2560
01:41:03,350 --> 01:41:00,420
been married 25 years deeply in love and

2561
01:41:05,870 --> 01:41:03,360
they'll say man my partner can surprise

2562
01:41:08,510 --> 01:41:05,880
me again and again I never it's never

2563
01:41:10,550 --> 01:41:08,520
done it's never done this is my this is

2564
01:41:12,950 --> 01:41:10,560
my experience right so faithfulness

2565
01:41:15,410 --> 01:41:12,960
Faith doesn't mean I have certainty it

2566
01:41:17,570 --> 01:41:15,420
doesn't mean that I have a completion of

2567
01:41:19,930 --> 01:41:17,580
you that I rasp you that I can

2568
01:41:23,390 --> 01:41:19,940
manipulate you at will in fact it means

2569
01:41:27,290 --> 01:41:23,400
ah it doesn't mean any of those it means

2570
01:41:29,930 --> 01:41:27,300
that I have bound myself to you so that

2571
01:41:31,669 --> 01:41:29,940
I understand that there are truths about

2572
01:41:33,229 --> 01:41:31,679
you that will not be disclosed to me

2573
01:41:35,629 --> 01:41:33,239
unless I'm willing to undergo

2574
01:41:38,810 --> 01:41:35,639
transformation in relationship to you

2575
01:41:41,629 --> 01:41:38,820
and and allow you to do the same with me

2576
01:41:43,490 --> 01:41:41,639
it was a these are transformative truths

2577
01:41:45,350 --> 01:41:43,500
that are disclosed by maintaining a

2578
01:41:47,209 --> 01:41:45,360
continuity of contact and an

2579
01:41:49,870 --> 01:41:47,219
understanding that we are going to

2580
01:41:52,490 --> 01:41:49,880
reciprocally open with each other

2581
01:41:54,649 --> 01:41:52,500
learned ignorance is the place at which

2582
01:41:56,870 --> 01:41:54,659
you are most able to do that with the

2583
01:41:58,550 --> 01:41:56,880
ground of being you are you are

2584
01:42:00,470 --> 01:41:58,560
reciprocally opening to its

2585
01:42:03,169 --> 01:42:00,480
inexhaustibleness and you are being

2586
01:42:06,109 --> 01:42:03,179
reciprocally transformed by that opening

2587
01:42:08,990 --> 01:42:06,119
again and again it's not that you come

2588
01:42:10,850 --> 01:42:09,000
to some some conclusive statement that

2589
01:42:12,950 --> 01:42:10,860
you can make it is the same kind of

2590
01:42:15,050 --> 01:42:12,960
sense you have of the depth of

2591
01:42:17,990 --> 01:42:15,060
connectedness you have to somebody you

2592
01:42:20,450 --> 01:42:18,000
have been faithful to and it grows the

2593
01:42:23,030 --> 01:42:20,460
longer you've been faithful and they've

2594
01:42:24,430 --> 01:42:23,040
been Faith you've the the language that

2595
01:42:27,050 --> 01:42:24,440
we've been together

2596
01:42:29,629 --> 01:42:27,060
we should give up the idea of Faith as

2597
01:42:31,669 --> 01:42:29,639
the assertion of things without evidence

2598
01:42:33,410 --> 01:42:31,679
there's all kinds of evidence in your

2599
01:42:36,530 --> 01:42:33,420
relationship but if I was to say could

2600
01:42:38,090 --> 01:42:36,540
you deduce or induce or abduce that you

2601
01:42:39,709 --> 01:42:38,100
should stay with your partner because of

2602
01:42:41,990 --> 01:42:39,719
this evidence you'd say no that's

2603
01:42:44,689 --> 01:42:42,000
ridiculous it's way more than that and

2604
01:42:47,209 --> 01:42:44,699
that's exactly the faithfulness element

2605
01:42:49,550 --> 01:42:47,219
Ian this reciprocal opening the way that

2606
01:42:51,470 --> 01:42:49,560
I imagine or the way that one generally

2607
01:42:53,930 --> 01:42:51,480
imagines God is that yes you can open up

2608
01:42:56,209 --> 01:42:53,940
to God but it's not as if God is

2609
01:42:57,830 --> 01:42:56,219
changing because of you now I know that

2610
01:43:00,050 --> 01:42:57,840
that means that there's a static view of

2611
01:43:03,169 --> 01:43:00,060
God and perhaps we should live away from

2612
01:43:05,830 --> 01:43:03,179
that yeah that we don't know that

2613
01:43:09,169 --> 01:43:05,840
um I actually believe with Whitehead

2614
01:43:12,709 --> 01:43:09,179
that the World by which he meant the

2615
01:43:14,450 --> 01:43:12,719
whole experiential Cosmos and God

2616
01:43:17,270 --> 01:43:14,460
are coming into being together

2617
01:43:19,430 --> 01:43:17,280
reciprocally and that we therefore have

2618
01:43:22,609 --> 01:43:19,440
a part to play a very important part so

2619
01:43:25,490 --> 01:43:22,619
it actually matters how we respond to

2620
01:43:27,169 --> 01:43:25,500
the world what we make of it what we see

2621
01:43:28,550 --> 01:43:27,179
in it and what we give back to it I'm

2622
01:43:30,590 --> 01:43:28,560
just going to go and put a light on I

2623
01:43:32,689 --> 01:43:30,600
didn't want to do it well John oh yes

2624
01:43:39,229 --> 01:43:32,699
because it seems a bit rude but I'm just

2625
01:43:43,010 --> 01:43:40,609
not sure this doesn't make any

2626
01:43:44,590 --> 01:43:43,020
difference but night is falling here

2627
01:43:47,890 --> 01:43:44,600
um

2628
01:43:52,990 --> 01:43:47,900
you kind of film The Walrus though Ian

2629
01:43:58,070 --> 01:43:55,910
you're lit on one side that's absolutely

2630
01:43:59,450 --> 01:43:58,080
fine yes I like asymmetry as you

2631
01:44:01,550 --> 01:43:59,460
probably know

2632
01:44:03,169 --> 01:44:01,560
um so yes

2633
01:44:05,209 --> 01:44:03,179
um where were we we were talking about

2634
01:44:06,830 --> 01:44:05,219
you were talking about right head and

2635
01:44:08,450 --> 01:44:06,840
yeah in the reciprocal opening between

2636
01:44:10,370 --> 01:44:08,460
goddesses it's a super glow opening so I

2637
01:44:13,010 --> 01:44:10,380
think that is a very important idea and

2638
01:44:14,930 --> 01:44:13,020
I think that another thing that um is

2639
01:44:18,169 --> 01:44:14,940
worth saying while talking about faith

2640
01:44:21,290 --> 01:44:18,179
is there is a similar duality in the

2641
01:44:23,629 --> 01:44:21,300
idea of belief so for example

2642
01:44:26,090 --> 01:44:23,639
um I can say I believe in a certain

2643
01:44:29,270 --> 01:44:26,100
person you know I really believe in him

2644
01:44:32,570 --> 01:44:29,280
it means I put my trust in him or her

2645
01:44:35,090 --> 01:44:32,580
and it and the point there is that there

2646
01:44:37,550 --> 01:44:35,100
is something about them that almost

2647
01:44:40,010 --> 01:44:37,560
places a responsibility on me to respond

2648
01:44:42,530 --> 01:44:40,020
but you're also by that very fact it

2649
01:44:45,410 --> 01:44:42,540
also places a responsibility on them to

2650
01:44:47,030 --> 01:44:45,420
be true to what it is I believe in you

2651
01:44:49,550 --> 01:44:47,040
know if they let you down then there has

2652
01:44:52,930 --> 01:44:49,560
been a failure of this relationship so

2653
01:44:55,310 --> 01:44:52,940
that what we are doing in life is always

2654
01:44:57,169 --> 01:44:55,320
assessing and helping to grow certain

2655
01:44:59,390 --> 01:44:57,179
relationships there is no certainty

2656
01:45:03,290 --> 01:44:59,400
about anything at all but that doesn't

2657
01:45:05,810 --> 01:45:03,300
make it blind yes this concept of faith

2658
01:45:10,490 --> 01:45:05,820
is blind needs to be put to bed once and

2659
01:45:13,129 --> 01:45:10,500
for all if I am forwarding a stream and

2660
01:45:16,970 --> 01:45:13,139
my companion has gone ahead across the

2661
01:45:19,729 --> 01:45:16,980
stream and as I get near the bank I need

2662
01:45:23,090 --> 01:45:19,739
a hand and he or she holds out a hand to

2663
01:45:25,729 --> 01:45:23,100
me it's not a random hand it's not like

2664
01:45:28,370 --> 01:45:25,739
blind to trust this hand I have to step

2665
01:45:30,590 --> 01:45:28,380
and I have to take the hand and and

2666
01:45:33,290 --> 01:45:30,600
that's that's the way I see it that you

2667
01:45:35,750 --> 01:45:33,300
see something that is calling to you and

2668
01:45:37,550 --> 01:45:35,760
saying if you understand this it will

2669
01:45:39,290 --> 01:45:37,560
radically change the way you think about

2670
01:45:41,450 --> 01:45:39,300
the world and there is no one right way

2671
01:45:42,890 --> 01:45:41,460
to know so just to say well I think I've

2672
01:45:44,510 --> 01:45:42,900
already got it and I'm not going to try

2673
01:45:46,850 --> 01:45:44,520
this at all I'm not going to put myself

2674
01:45:48,410 --> 01:45:46,860
in the way of something happening that's

2675
01:45:52,370 --> 01:45:48,420
really what I'm saying it has to be

2676
01:45:54,290 --> 01:45:52,380
experiential as John and I agree

2677
01:45:56,270 --> 01:45:54,300
um but what that means is that you do

2678
01:45:58,129 --> 01:45:56,280
have a responsibility to put yourself in

2679
01:46:00,890 --> 01:45:58,139
the way of something happening

2680
01:46:02,510 --> 01:46:00,900
um you know if you sit at home saying I

2681
01:46:04,129 --> 01:46:02,520
want to marry but I'll never I'll never

2682
01:46:06,470 --> 01:46:04,139
meet any but you never ever leave the

2683
01:46:07,970 --> 01:46:06,480
home you'll never get married so if you

2684
01:46:09,890 --> 01:46:07,980
want to you you don't know who you will

2685
01:46:11,870 --> 01:46:09,900
marry it's entirely unpredictable it may

2686
01:46:13,550 --> 01:46:11,880
be chance what happens but nonetheless

2687
01:46:15,109 --> 01:46:13,560
you have to open yourself to the

2688
01:46:17,090 --> 01:46:15,119
possibility otherwise it won't happen

2689
01:46:18,770 --> 01:46:17,100
and the same I think is true of our

2690
01:46:20,990 --> 01:46:18,780
relationship with

2691
01:46:22,450 --> 01:46:21,000
with the cosmos at large which I believe

2692
01:46:26,410 --> 01:46:22,460
is a living

2693
01:46:30,530 --> 01:46:26,420
organismic entity a conscious entity

2694
01:46:32,810 --> 01:46:30,540
or God depending on what it is to be I

2695
01:46:33,609 --> 01:46:32,820
don't want to rule anybody's

2696
01:46:36,530 --> 01:46:33,619
um

2697
01:46:38,930 --> 01:46:36,540
attempt to make this encounter out just

2698
01:46:41,270 --> 01:46:38,940
because of the word

2699
01:46:43,970 --> 01:46:41,280
I wanted to pick up on the the you know

2700
01:46:45,709 --> 01:46:43,980
the connections between you know trust

2701
01:46:48,050 --> 01:46:45,719
trough

2702
01:46:49,609 --> 01:46:48,060
truth we talk about being being

2703
01:46:51,649 --> 01:46:49,619
betrothed to somebody we talk about

2704
01:46:53,930 --> 01:46:51,659
being true to somebody there's deep

2705
01:46:56,510 --> 01:46:53,940
connections between these and and and

2706
01:46:58,850 --> 01:46:56,520
we've come up with the notion of faith

2707
01:47:01,129 --> 01:46:58,860
that is so disconnected from that

2708
01:47:03,709 --> 01:47:01,139
interconnecting set you know truth and

2709
01:47:06,050 --> 01:47:03,719
trough and Trust uh it's that that

2710
01:47:07,430 --> 01:47:06,060
that's just a fundamental mistake we

2711
01:47:08,689 --> 01:47:07,440
need a sense of that's why I propose the

2712
01:47:10,430 --> 01:47:08,699
notion of faithfulness because many

2713
01:47:11,870 --> 01:47:10,440
people hear something different in

2714
01:47:14,390 --> 01:47:11,880
faithfulness than they do to Faith

2715
01:47:17,030 --> 01:47:14,400
because it connects with that being true

2716
01:47:18,590 --> 01:47:17,040
to right betrothing yourself to somebody

2717
01:47:22,810 --> 01:47:18,600
trusting

2718
01:47:28,910 --> 01:47:25,910
good have you gone anywhere to answering

2719
01:47:30,470 --> 01:47:28,920
anything of your your questions I need

2720
01:47:32,510 --> 01:47:30,480
to think about this I generally think

2721
01:47:34,070 --> 01:47:32,520
more when I'm editing too do you hear

2722
01:47:36,410 --> 01:47:34,080
something interesting talking about the

2723
01:47:38,870 --> 01:47:36,420
Flow State there's also this adage that

2724
01:47:40,430 --> 01:47:38,880
we need to be more present and that life

2725
01:47:43,729 --> 01:47:40,440
will just pass you by if you're not

2726
01:47:45,350 --> 01:47:43,739
present however when one isn't at least

2727
01:47:47,510 --> 01:47:45,360
when I'm in the Flow State

2728
01:47:49,430 --> 01:47:47,520
maybe I'm present but life is certainly

2729
01:47:50,870 --> 01:47:49,440
passing me by in the sense that if you

2730
01:47:52,850 --> 01:47:50,880
stop me right now you say Kurt am I in

2731
01:47:54,470 --> 01:47:52,860
the Flow State I realize actually yes I

2732
01:47:55,910 --> 01:47:54,480
have been in the Flow State so much time

2733
01:47:57,649 --> 01:47:55,920
has passed by but I can consciously

2734
01:47:59,870 --> 01:47:57,659
remember little of it but that doesn't

2735
01:48:04,250 --> 01:47:59,880
mean that it's not implicit an estimated

2736
01:48:06,770 --> 01:48:04,260
over precise estimate of the amount of

2737
01:48:10,790 --> 01:48:06,780
the stuff that our brain is processing

2738
01:48:13,550 --> 01:48:10,800
is that only 0.6 of it is stuff that we

2739
01:48:16,129 --> 01:48:13,560
are aware of being aware of

2740
01:48:18,890 --> 01:48:16,139
so our self-conscious self-aware

2741
01:48:20,450 --> 01:48:18,900
awareness uh is the accompaniment to

2742
01:48:22,370 --> 01:48:20,460
almost all of our life it doesn't mean

2743
01:48:24,169 --> 01:48:22,380
it's not happening to us it doesn't mean

2744
01:48:26,209 --> 01:48:24,179
it's not changing us it doesn't mean

2745
01:48:29,270 --> 01:48:26,219
that we're not partaking in it it just

2746
01:48:31,490 --> 01:48:29,280
means that that bit of us in which we

2747
01:48:33,649 --> 01:48:31,500
stand back and consciously say I've been

2748
01:48:34,970 --> 01:48:33,659
in this state or I am in this state well

2749
01:48:37,669 --> 01:48:34,980
first of all doing that in the state

2750
01:48:40,430 --> 01:48:37,679
would interrupt it and it's again to

2751
01:48:42,770 --> 01:48:40,440
quote Whitehead he says that operations

2752
01:48:46,609 --> 01:48:42,780
of thought are like Cavalry Charges in

2753
01:48:49,490 --> 01:48:46,619
battle they need to be very rare they

2754
01:48:51,830 --> 01:48:49,500
require Fresh Horses and they're not a

2755
01:48:55,250 --> 01:48:51,840
solution to the way in which one carries

2756
01:48:57,590 --> 01:48:55,260
out a campaign so you know you

2757
01:48:59,890 --> 01:48:57,600
the fact that you're not aware but I

2758
01:49:03,770 --> 01:48:59,900
wanted just to talk about time because

2759
01:49:05,870 --> 01:49:03,780
there's a sense in which time is passing

2760
01:49:08,030 --> 01:49:05,880
in which we're outside the flow

2761
01:49:09,590 --> 01:49:08,040
objectively and we're watching things

2762
01:49:11,930 --> 01:49:09,600
happening and we have this image of

2763
01:49:14,149 --> 01:49:11,940
something moving past us but there's

2764
01:49:15,770 --> 01:49:14,159
another kind of being in the flow of

2765
01:49:18,830 --> 01:49:15,780
time where we're not standing on the

2766
01:49:21,050 --> 01:49:18,840
bank of the river with a clipboard and a

2767
01:49:22,970 --> 01:49:21,060
stopwatch measuring things but we are

2768
01:49:26,090 --> 01:49:22,980
actually in the flow we are literally

2769
01:49:28,250 --> 01:49:26,100
swimming with the river and as far as

2770
01:49:30,830 --> 01:49:28,260
we're concerned the river is not really

2771
01:49:33,350 --> 01:49:30,840
moving we're moving with the river so

2772
01:49:35,510 --> 01:49:33,360
relative to us as it where time is still

2773
01:49:38,270 --> 01:49:35,520
but in fact nonetheless the flow is

2774
01:49:40,010 --> 01:49:38,280
happening time is passing we are part of

2775
01:49:43,129 --> 01:49:40,020
it it just depends on whether we're

2776
01:49:45,770 --> 01:49:43,139
apart from it and imagining ourselves to

2777
01:49:48,530 --> 01:49:45,780
be stationary or taking part in it

2778
01:49:50,390 --> 01:49:48,540
yeah I I don't have much to add to that

2779
01:49:53,450 --> 01:49:50,400
other than sort of a brooksonian idea

2780
01:49:56,030 --> 01:49:53,460
that when we when we

2781
01:49:57,950 --> 01:49:56,040
when we were start reflecting on time

2782
01:50:01,310 --> 01:49:57,960
and I'm not saying we shouldn't but we

2783
01:50:03,229 --> 01:50:01,320
lose time in and and you know I mean

2784
01:50:05,270 --> 01:50:03,239
this is this is the way to distract this

2785
01:50:06,229 --> 01:50:05,280
is the way to it's a sneaky way to win

2786
01:50:08,390 --> 01:50:06,239
when you're sparring with somebody

2787
01:50:10,250 --> 01:50:08,400
compliment what they just did

2788
01:50:11,510 --> 01:50:10,260
because then they'll stand back and look

2789
01:50:13,250 --> 01:50:11,520
at it and they'll become precisely

2790
01:50:15,109 --> 01:50:13,260
disengaged from it and then you win

2791
01:50:16,629 --> 01:50:15,119
because you've got to open it right

2792
01:50:19,070 --> 01:50:16,639
right

2793
01:50:20,450 --> 01:50:19,080
and because they're not because they're

2794
01:50:22,609 --> 01:50:20,460
it's in an adversarial thing they're not

2795
01:50:24,709 --> 01:50:22,619
expecting a compliment you're a wicked

2796
01:50:28,550 --> 01:50:24,719
man Jones no I think it's excellent It's

2797
01:50:30,350 --> 01:50:28,560
Oriental Oriental uh it isn't it yeah so

2798
01:50:32,209 --> 01:50:30,360
yeah I I mean I'm not advising doing

2799
01:50:33,370 --> 01:50:32,219
that no I have done it and I absolutely

2800
01:50:35,930 --> 01:50:33,380
excited

2801
01:50:37,629 --> 01:50:35,940
once and I have seen that well maybe

2802
01:50:40,010 --> 01:50:37,639
more than once but not a lot of times

2803
01:50:43,430 --> 01:50:40,020
but just to make but the point I'm

2804
01:50:48,169 --> 01:50:43,440
making aside from my uh uh whether or

2805
01:50:50,570 --> 01:50:48,179
not I I fell into advice is that

2806
01:50:54,410 --> 01:50:50,580
um I hope you know I'm joking well

2807
01:50:58,189 --> 01:50:54,420
that's why I'm laughing um so yeah uh

2808
01:51:00,050 --> 01:50:58,199
yeah I I think there's a sense

2809
01:51:01,729 --> 01:51:00,060
I mean Augustine said it famously I know

2810
01:51:03,169 --> 01:51:01,739
what time is until somebody asks me and

2811
01:51:07,550 --> 01:51:03,179
I'm not I don't want to get too much

2812
01:51:11,030 --> 01:51:08,930
there are

2813
01:51:13,669 --> 01:51:11,040
I hope this doesn't come off as a

2814
01:51:15,649 --> 01:51:13,679
ridiculous pseudo postmodern pun there

2815
01:51:17,450 --> 01:51:15,659
are times when timing matters

2816
01:51:18,530 --> 01:51:17,460
and there's times when the future

2817
01:51:21,770 --> 01:51:18,540
matters

2818
01:51:25,669 --> 01:51:21,780
I I think giving you advice to always

2819
01:51:30,229 --> 01:51:25,679
stay in the present moment is is like

2820
01:51:32,930 --> 01:51:30,239
that's not true uh I mean we we we need

2821
01:51:36,830 --> 01:51:32,940
a present moment that is bound ratio

2822
01:51:39,229 --> 01:51:36,840
religio uh to our future self we have to

2823
01:51:41,149 --> 01:51:39,239
pursue long-term goals uh Mario Smith

2824
01:51:42,530 --> 01:51:41,159
and fischbach talk about you know you

2825
01:51:45,229 --> 01:51:42,540
have two different things you have to do

2826
01:51:47,149 --> 01:51:45,239
things inside a frame you have to be

2827
01:51:48,590 --> 01:51:47,159
able to self-regulate delay

2828
01:51:50,629 --> 01:51:48,600
gratification that's in the present

2829
01:51:52,729 --> 01:51:50,639
moment and mindfulness practices are

2830
01:51:55,250 --> 01:51:52,739
power meditative practices are powerful

2831
01:51:56,870 --> 01:51:55,260
for that but you also need to do frame

2832
01:51:58,370 --> 01:51:56,880
widening because you need to see if

2833
01:52:01,550 --> 01:51:58,380
what's happening in your present state

2834
01:52:03,830 --> 01:52:01,560
is concurrent not concurrent consonant

2835
01:52:05,209 --> 01:52:03,840
with your long-term future goals and

2836
01:52:07,370 --> 01:52:05,219
your future self remember the people who

2837
01:52:08,990 --> 01:52:07,380
don't save for their retirement you need

2838
01:52:10,250 --> 01:52:09,000
to balance properly between them and I

2839
01:52:12,709 --> 01:52:10,260
think that's what contemplative

2840
01:52:14,810 --> 01:52:12,719
practices do contemplative practices are

2841
01:52:16,910 --> 01:52:14,820
all often designed not to get us

2842
01:52:18,709 --> 01:52:16,920
immersed in the present moment in that

2843
01:52:21,109 --> 01:52:18,719
sense they're designed to remind us

2844
01:52:23,990 --> 01:52:21,119
about the comprehensive big picture is

2845
01:52:25,910 --> 01:52:24,000
powerful in deep ways and I put it to

2846
01:52:29,050 --> 01:52:25,920
you that what we're actually after is

2847
01:52:32,270 --> 01:52:29,060
Marlo Ponte sets up an optimal grip a

2848
01:52:35,450 --> 01:52:32,280
dynamic balance between those again that

2849
01:52:37,850 --> 01:52:35,460
for me is that is an essential dimension

2850
01:52:39,290 --> 01:52:37,860
of ratio religio how am I properly bound

2851
01:52:42,470 --> 01:52:39,300
to time

2852
01:52:47,810 --> 01:52:42,480
simplistic models I do not think give us

2853
01:52:50,149 --> 01:52:47,820
what is conducive to a good human life I

2854
01:52:51,890 --> 01:52:50,159
mean we don't we don't want to be wanted

2855
01:52:53,750 --> 01:52:51,900
right we don't want to be a creature of

2856
01:52:55,550 --> 01:52:53,760
pure impulse because then we'll just be

2857
01:52:57,290 --> 01:52:55,560
destroyed right this is bellman's point

2858
01:52:59,330 --> 01:52:57,300
our agency will just be destroyed

2859
01:53:03,109 --> 01:52:59,340
absolutely I think that's absolutely not

2860
01:53:04,790 --> 01:53:03,119
what many exponents of the idea that we

2861
01:53:07,310 --> 01:53:04,800
should remain in the present are meaning

2862
01:53:10,550 --> 01:53:07,320
not that we should be you know

2863
01:53:12,530 --> 01:53:10,560
Thoughtless and never reflect and note

2864
01:53:15,229 --> 01:53:12,540
that we should be impulsive above all

2865
01:53:17,689 --> 01:53:15,239
but that we should be able in fact by us

2866
01:53:20,930 --> 01:53:17,699
kind of standing back to be more present

2867
01:53:23,570 --> 01:53:20,940
to the whole yes I think I mean I don't

2868
01:53:25,129 --> 01:53:23,580
disagree with your essential point I I

2869
01:53:28,129 --> 01:53:25,139
often think you know it's all very well

2870
01:53:30,590 --> 01:53:28,139
but we are the the creature that looks

2871
01:53:33,669 --> 01:53:30,600
before and behind you know and that is

2872
01:53:36,729 --> 01:53:33,679
our nature we are of beings who reflect

2873
01:53:41,570 --> 01:53:36,739
towards the person and the future so

2874
01:53:44,149 --> 01:53:41,580
yeah I agree deeply what I meant was I

2875
01:53:46,070 --> 01:53:44,159
know I I'm not I'm not disagreeing with

2876
01:53:48,530 --> 01:53:46,080
you I'm just saying that's the way to

2877
01:53:51,310 --> 01:53:48,540
think of it I agree I'm agreeing with

2878
01:53:54,050 --> 01:53:51,320
how you're agreeing with me okay

2879
01:53:56,590 --> 01:53:54,060
but no but I want to respond to Curves

2880
01:53:58,550 --> 01:53:56,600
sure

2881
01:54:01,030 --> 01:53:58,560
because I

2882
01:54:07,189 --> 01:54:04,550
propose that many people are using the

2883
01:54:09,229 --> 01:54:07,199
slogan of being the present moment as a

2884
01:54:11,810 --> 01:54:09,239
license for impulsivity

2885
01:54:13,790 --> 01:54:11,820
for gratification for not long-term

2886
01:54:15,830 --> 01:54:13,800
planning or being Reckless for

2887
01:54:17,390 --> 01:54:15,840
justifying going for the Gusto and all

2888
01:54:21,290 --> 01:54:17,400
other of the we have a whole

2889
01:54:23,689 --> 01:54:21,300
constellation of memes around this right

2890
01:54:25,490 --> 01:54:23,699
which is of course designed to keep us

2891
01:54:27,109 --> 01:54:25,500
buying stuff and perpetually

2892
01:54:29,209 --> 01:54:27,119
dissatisfied

2893
01:54:31,790 --> 01:54:29,219
um and that was the sense I wanted to

2894
01:54:34,430 --> 01:54:31,800
challenge okay so let me see if I can

2895
01:54:35,629 --> 01:54:34,440
tie a few threads together and weave it

2896
01:54:37,370 --> 01:54:35,639
back to the beginning

2897
01:54:38,810 --> 01:54:37,380
Ian when you said yeah there's a

2898
01:54:40,490 --> 01:54:38,820
misinterpretation of what it means to be

2899
01:54:43,189 --> 01:54:40,500
in the present moment

2900
01:54:44,990 --> 01:54:43,199
this is interesting because much of the

2901
01:54:47,090 --> 01:54:45,000
advice that I read in the comment

2902
01:54:49,370 --> 01:54:47,100
section not on toe videos well onto

2903
01:54:51,590 --> 01:54:49,380
videos but on other people's videos and

2904
01:54:53,810 --> 01:54:51,600
advice that I hear from quote-unquote

2905
01:54:55,189 --> 01:54:53,820
gurus and so on I'm interpreting it in a

2906
01:54:56,570 --> 01:54:55,199
certain way because I grew up in the

2907
01:54:58,669 --> 01:54:56,580
west and the way that they're

2908
01:54:59,930 --> 01:54:58,679
interpreting something in from an

2909
01:55:01,430 --> 01:54:59,940
English text which was already

2910
01:55:02,750 --> 01:55:01,440
translated and perhaps they have a

2911
01:55:04,310 --> 01:55:02,760
misinterpretation then I'm

2912
01:55:06,830 --> 01:55:04,320
misinterpreting what they're saying so

2913
01:55:08,450 --> 01:55:06,840
when some people say well I am God or so

2914
01:55:11,570 --> 01:55:08,460
and so on people say yeah I feel that

2915
01:55:13,970 --> 01:55:11,580
well you don't know if what you if what

2916
01:55:16,070 --> 01:55:13,980
they mean is what you feel and then when

2917
01:55:17,750 --> 01:55:16,080
I hear about we were talking earlier

2918
01:55:20,209 --> 01:55:17,760
about practices and rituals and they're

2919
01:55:22,250 --> 01:55:20,219
important you hear what we should do we

2920
01:55:24,350 --> 01:55:22,260
should be mindful more and this feature

2921
01:55:26,229 --> 01:55:24,360
list as you call them John this bullet

2922
01:55:28,970 --> 01:55:26,239
point list of what we should do

2923
01:55:31,010 --> 01:55:28,980
it's it's not entirely clear like I

2924
01:55:33,590 --> 01:55:31,020
believe in I used to believe in all that

2925
01:55:35,629 --> 01:55:33,600
let's say two years one

2926
01:55:38,450 --> 01:55:35,639
in my adult life until one year ago

2927
01:55:40,070 --> 01:55:38,460
because I'm such a liberal person in the

2928
01:55:41,810 --> 01:55:40,080
sense that I want everyone to be correct

2929
01:55:43,550 --> 01:55:41,820
like every culture is correct in their

2930
01:55:45,109 --> 01:55:43,560
way and everyone's touching a certain

2931
01:55:47,270 --> 01:55:45,119
part of the elephant it's just a

2932
01:55:49,669 --> 01:55:47,280
different part and and no one's wrong so

2933
01:55:52,070 --> 01:55:49,679
let me just let me take the the good and

2934
01:55:55,669 --> 01:55:52,080
and put in different pieces into me

2935
01:55:57,649 --> 01:55:55,679
however I feel it's as if

2936
01:55:59,689 --> 01:55:57,659
trying to install mac software on a

2937
01:56:02,930 --> 01:55:59,699
Windows computer it's like we're we're

2938
01:56:04,850 --> 01:56:02,940
windows and if you force an Exe on a Mac

2939
01:56:07,310 --> 01:56:04,860
no no firstly it won't load but if you

2940
01:56:09,770 --> 01:56:07,320
force it it will corrupt it and so I

2941
01:56:11,390 --> 01:56:09,780
think so much of what's gone incorrect

2942
01:56:14,030 --> 01:56:11,400
with me and perhaps with others because

2943
01:56:16,790 --> 01:56:14,040
as I talk about certain let's say

2944
01:56:17,810 --> 01:56:16,800
episodes of mine publicly people say oh

2945
01:56:19,430 --> 01:56:17,820
my gosh I've gone through something

2946
01:56:20,870 --> 01:56:19,440
similar and I haven't heard almost

2947
01:56:22,070 --> 01:56:20,880
anyone else talk about it and here's

2948
01:56:23,930 --> 01:56:22,080
what I've gone through

2949
01:56:26,270 --> 01:56:23,940
I feel like what's happening is that

2950
01:56:28,250 --> 01:56:26,280
we're being told so many lessons from so

2951
01:56:30,290 --> 01:56:28,260
many different places and they're not

2952
01:56:31,729 --> 01:56:30,300
unified and we're trying to apply them

2953
01:56:33,890 --> 01:56:31,739
to ourselves

2954
01:56:35,149 --> 01:56:33,900
so Ian you use this word marrying

2955
01:56:37,129 --> 01:56:35,159
earlier that you need to open yourself

2956
01:56:39,470 --> 01:56:37,139
up to marriage and earlier you talked

2957
01:56:41,149 --> 01:56:39,480
about traditional religion and Kurt his

2958
01:56:43,250 --> 01:56:41,159
entire adult life and his entire Teenage

2959
01:56:45,109 --> 01:56:43,260
life just an inexorable atheist and

2960
01:56:46,669 --> 01:56:45,119
uncompromising one one that's

2961
01:56:48,830 --> 01:56:46,679
condescending to anything that is

2962
01:56:50,990 --> 01:56:48,840
remotely superstitious or what I would

2963
01:56:52,729 --> 01:56:51,000
classify as superstitious would say no

2964
01:56:54,649 --> 01:56:52,739
there's nothing in traditional religion

2965
01:56:56,330 --> 01:56:54,659
that needs saving and if we're going to

2966
01:56:57,950 --> 01:56:56,340
formulate something that's a new

2967
01:56:59,810 --> 01:56:57,960
religion it has to be religion without

2968
01:57:01,010 --> 01:56:59,820
religion in John's word though I'm using

2969
01:57:02,689 --> 01:57:01,020
those words now I wouldn't have said

2970
01:57:05,270 --> 01:57:02,699
that before but I see that there's

2971
01:57:06,830 --> 01:57:05,280
something to marrying a religion and

2972
01:57:08,689 --> 01:57:06,840
what I mean by that is when it comes to

2973
01:57:10,250 --> 01:57:08,699
my wife it's not like I evaluated every

2974
01:57:12,050 --> 01:57:10,260
woman on the planet and said this was

2975
01:57:13,910 --> 01:57:12,060
the best one there's going to be flaws

2976
01:57:15,950 --> 01:57:13,920
with each one so it's as if I had to

2977
01:57:17,689 --> 01:57:15,960
decide that she's the right one or

2978
01:57:20,089 --> 01:57:17,699
create the right one together with her

2979
01:57:21,890 --> 01:57:20,099
and I wonder if the same is true with

2980
01:57:23,570 --> 01:57:21,900
religion that part of this is that we

2981
01:57:25,850 --> 01:57:23,580
simply need to decide a religion and

2982
01:57:27,050 --> 01:57:25,860
then make it right for us and it's not

2983
01:57:28,970 --> 01:57:27,060
going to be right there's going to be so

2984
01:57:30,530 --> 01:57:28,980
much that they say that's incorrect so

2985
01:57:32,390 --> 01:57:30,540
that I'm just like no there's like Adam

2986
01:57:34,970 --> 01:57:32,400
and Eve it's not literal why are you

2987
01:57:37,189 --> 01:57:34,980
excoriating Evolution constantly like

2988
01:57:39,229 --> 01:57:37,199
this is not how it is and I disbelieve

2989
01:57:40,490 --> 01:57:39,239
that and so on and so on there's so much

2990
01:57:42,350 --> 01:57:40,500
that I disbelieve but there's so much

2991
01:57:44,270 --> 01:57:42,360
that I gained from it there's so much

2992
01:57:47,689 --> 01:57:44,280
that I gain from having this community

2993
01:57:49,609 --> 01:57:47,699
that's in Wisconsin a tradition

2994
01:57:52,550 --> 01:57:49,619
so anyway those are some thoughts that

2995
01:57:53,689 --> 01:57:52,560
I'm laying out in a sense to tie what we

2996
01:57:55,550 --> 01:57:53,699
talked about in the beginning together

2997
01:57:57,229 --> 01:57:55,560
with some of the threads that were left

2998
01:57:59,089 --> 01:57:57,239
open throughout what are your thoughts

2999
01:58:00,530 --> 01:57:59,099
on that John do you want to start well

3000
01:58:02,689 --> 01:58:00,540
you were addressing the tea yet I

3001
01:58:05,570 --> 01:58:02,699
thought he should respond first

3002
01:58:07,790 --> 01:58:05,580
Ian please

3003
01:58:10,490 --> 01:58:07,800
well I don't know which bit to respond

3004
01:58:12,589 --> 01:58:10,500
to but um uh

3005
01:58:14,810 --> 01:58:12,599
but I mean first of all I think that

3006
01:58:18,709 --> 01:58:14,820
there's a huge problem in

3007
01:58:22,010 --> 01:58:18,719
um taking something that is clearly a

3008
01:58:24,709 --> 01:58:22,020
myth as literal truth I think that's a

3009
01:58:27,229 --> 01:58:24,719
very modern idea that you know we're so

3010
01:58:30,530 --> 01:58:27,239
used to talking only in literal terms

3011
01:58:32,149 --> 01:58:30,540
mean anything and not true that a myth I

3012
01:58:35,270 --> 01:58:32,159
mean the very word suggests that it's

3013
01:58:38,330 --> 01:58:35,280
false but now we only started using the

3014
01:58:39,410 --> 01:58:38,340
word in the 19th century and uh in fact

3015
01:58:42,050 --> 01:58:39,420
of course

3016
01:58:44,570 --> 01:58:42,060
um Mythos was anciently for the Greeks

3017
01:58:46,669 --> 01:58:44,580
the superior way of arriving at truth

3018
01:58:49,729 --> 01:58:46,679
logos was a secondary kind of Truth

3019
01:58:51,649 --> 01:58:49,739
which over time took over from it but it

3020
01:58:53,149 --> 01:58:51,659
was through through my thoughts that

3021
01:58:55,450 --> 01:58:53,159
when actually reach these deeper

3022
01:58:58,490 --> 01:58:55,460
realities that I think you're describing

3023
01:59:00,890 --> 01:58:58,500
as possibly being experienced by people

3024
01:59:04,669 --> 01:59:00,900
in religion

3025
01:59:06,410 --> 01:59:04,679
um the idea of marrying yes I mean uh of

3026
01:59:07,729 --> 01:59:06,420
course I'm not talking well I don't know

3027
01:59:09,890 --> 01:59:07,739
if I mentioned that I mean I was just

3028
01:59:13,129 --> 01:59:09,900
using it as an example but I I think

3029
01:59:16,010 --> 01:59:13,139
that the point there is that it brings

3030
01:59:18,109 --> 01:59:16,020
up the idea of something that is fitting

3031
01:59:21,109 --> 01:59:18,119
um Carpenters still talk about two

3032
01:59:23,629 --> 01:59:21,119
surfaces that meet perfectly as marrying

3033
01:59:25,930 --> 01:59:23,639
and they're fitting and it's this sense

3034
01:59:28,490 --> 01:59:25,940
of something that is a correspondence

3035
01:59:30,709 --> 01:59:28,500
that is attention or something that is

3036
01:59:35,570 --> 01:59:30,719
resolved in a new Union that something

3037
01:59:37,970 --> 01:59:35,580
is what we're describing uh as the the

3038
01:59:41,510 --> 01:59:37,980
meaningful encounter the faithful

3039
01:59:43,070 --> 01:59:41,520
encounter where something about the two

3040
01:59:45,169 --> 01:59:43,080
surfaces

3041
01:59:46,609 --> 01:59:45,179
produce something completely new that

3042
01:59:50,750 --> 01:59:46,619
neither surface on their own could even

3043
01:59:54,169 --> 01:59:51,470
um

3044
01:59:56,230 --> 01:59:54,179
yes uh I mean

3045
01:59:56,390 --> 01:59:56,240
the way I would put that

3046
01:59:57,589 --> 01:59:56,400
[Music]

3047
02:00:05,270 --> 01:59:57,599
um

3048
02:00:06,770 --> 02:00:05,280
continuous with what you're doing in all

3049
02:00:09,850 --> 02:00:06,780
of your cognition which is relevance

3050
02:00:13,729 --> 02:00:09,860
realization which is about trying to fit

3051
02:00:15,950 --> 02:00:13,739
your framing to the world and it is not

3052
02:00:18,530 --> 02:00:15,960
given by you nor received by the world

3053
02:00:21,169 --> 02:00:18,540
but transjective it is made by the two

3054
02:00:23,290 --> 02:00:21,179
fitting together just like biological

3055
02:00:26,209 --> 02:00:23,300
adaptivity

3056
02:00:28,370 --> 02:00:26,219
you know Kurt that's how I use I use

3057
02:00:30,169 --> 02:00:28,380
that as a metaphor of work the relevance

3058
02:00:32,510 --> 02:00:30,179
realization that I think is at the core

3059
02:00:35,810 --> 02:00:32,520
of our cognition and so what are you

3060
02:00:37,910 --> 02:00:35,820
doing with a myth I think you're doing a

3061
02:00:39,410 --> 02:00:37,920
kind of relevance realization myths

3062
02:00:42,229 --> 02:00:39,420
aren't

3063
02:00:44,330 --> 02:00:42,239
false stories about the paths their

3064
02:00:47,530 --> 02:00:44,340
imaginal stories to enable us to see

3065
02:00:49,970 --> 02:00:47,540
pertinent and profound and pervasive

3066
02:00:52,189 --> 02:00:49,980
problems and patterns that we are not

3067
02:00:53,930 --> 02:00:52,199
paying attention to myth and in that

3068
02:00:56,629 --> 02:00:53,940
sense is bound up with the proper sense

3069
02:00:59,149 --> 02:00:56,639
of Prophecy prophecy isn't telling the

3070
02:01:01,669 --> 02:00:59,159
future it's telling forth what needs to

3071
02:01:02,990 --> 02:01:01,679
be seen right now

3072
02:01:07,189 --> 02:01:03,000
deeply

3073
02:01:10,310 --> 02:01:07,199
and so for me like if you are getting a

3074
02:01:12,350 --> 02:01:10,320
lot out of it ask yourself Kev and you

3075
02:01:15,169 --> 02:01:12,360
know the fact that whoever is giving you

3076
02:01:17,689 --> 02:01:15,179
the really silly sermon about you know

3077
02:01:19,910 --> 02:01:17,699
the Book of Genesis disproves Darwin or

3078
02:01:23,570 --> 02:01:19,920
something ridiculous than that I I mean

3079
02:01:26,750 --> 02:01:23,580
like if you can if if the myth comes

3080
02:01:29,390 --> 02:01:26,760
alive for you what's it doing I mean the

3081
02:01:31,310 --> 02:01:29,400
best the best myths

3082
02:01:33,410 --> 02:01:31,320
make us aware of the fact that we're

3083
02:01:34,910 --> 02:01:33,420
bound up in Mythos that we're bound up

3084
02:01:36,470 --> 02:01:34,920
in relevance realization that we're

3085
02:01:38,629 --> 02:01:36,480
bound to the world that we're connected

3086
02:01:41,330 --> 02:01:38,639
to it we're connected to each other and

3087
02:01:43,189 --> 02:01:41,340
and this connectedness we don't make it

3088
02:01:45,350 --> 02:01:43,199
we nor do we merely receive it we

3089
02:01:47,330 --> 02:01:45,360
participate in it we cultivate it and

3090
02:01:49,790 --> 02:01:47,340
and we have a deep and profound

3091
02:01:53,270 --> 02:01:49,800
responsibility to it because of how much

3092
02:01:55,729 --> 02:01:53,280
we belong to it and participate in it

3093
02:01:59,089 --> 02:01:55,739
and I think that's what

3094
02:02:01,310 --> 02:01:59,099
um when religion is functioning well it

3095
02:02:03,410 --> 02:02:01,320
uses its Mythos to do that can religion

3096
02:02:05,930 --> 02:02:03,420
malfunction of course it can everything

3097
02:02:08,689 --> 02:02:05,940
can malfunction science can malfunction

3098
02:02:10,129 --> 02:02:08,699
math was on this crazy thing where they

3099
02:02:11,810 --> 02:02:10,139
you know this whole project we thought

3100
02:02:14,570 --> 02:02:11,820
we could give a logical foundation for

3101
02:02:16,129 --> 02:02:14,580
math you know A Century of this crazy it

3102
02:02:19,189 --> 02:02:16,139
turned out just to be Impossible Project

3103
02:02:23,089 --> 02:02:19,199
we can go everything even math can go

3104
02:02:26,290 --> 02:02:23,099
down rabbit holes we gotta stop again

3105
02:02:29,390 --> 02:02:26,300
like hoping that we'll find perfection

3106
02:02:31,850 --> 02:02:29,400
as the mark of the Sacred with meaning

3107
02:02:36,109 --> 02:02:31,860
that in which we should trust

3108
02:02:39,050 --> 02:02:36,119
right God We Trust right we we we've got

3109
02:02:40,850 --> 02:02:39,060
to get more to this sense of pecanity

3110
02:02:43,430 --> 02:02:40,860
richness

3111
02:02:44,930 --> 02:02:43,440
when I do my neoplatonic practices The

3112
02:02:48,169 --> 02:02:44,940
Virtue that I the virtues that I

3113
02:02:50,450 --> 02:02:48,179
cultivate in them transfer very well to

3114
02:02:54,709 --> 02:02:50,460
my experience into my mind to my my

3115
02:02:56,810 --> 02:02:54,719
practices as a scientist and vice versa

3116
02:02:59,149 --> 02:02:56,820
and a lot of people this is now becoming

3117
02:03:01,250 --> 02:02:59,159
a viable philosophical position virtue

3118
02:03:03,109 --> 02:03:01,260
epistemology that actually what we're

3119
02:03:05,089 --> 02:03:03,119
doing in all of our domains is trying to

3120
02:03:07,910 --> 02:03:05,099
cultivate a set of Virtues that we can

3121
02:03:09,050 --> 02:03:07,920
apply across these many domains and so

3122
02:03:11,930 --> 02:03:09,060
for me

3123
02:03:13,669 --> 02:03:11,940
if it's doing that if the Mythos allows

3124
02:03:14,930 --> 02:03:13,679
you to cultivate virtues that percolate

3125
02:03:17,810 --> 02:03:14,940
through your psyche and permeate through

3126
02:03:19,490 --> 02:03:17,820
your life why are you like that's what

3127
02:03:24,229 --> 02:03:19,500
more could you want

3128
02:03:25,910 --> 02:03:24,239
that's what that's what I mean that's

3129
02:03:30,229 --> 02:03:25,920
that that's what you want when you marry

3130
02:03:31,669 --> 02:03:30,239
someone uh and I think we've got we've

3131
02:03:34,430 --> 02:03:31,679
got to give up I keep saying this we've

3132
02:03:37,850 --> 02:03:34,440
got to give up the hunger for completion

3133
02:03:41,810 --> 02:03:37,860
for certainty for comprehensive grasp

3134
02:03:44,570 --> 02:03:41,820
we've got to stop that and it's so it's

3135
02:03:47,330 --> 02:03:44,580
so endemic and Insidious you know

3136
02:03:48,649 --> 02:03:47,340
thinking it takes a lot of effort

3137
02:03:50,209 --> 02:03:48,659
personally and collectively to address

3138
02:03:51,950 --> 02:03:50,219
that

3139
02:03:53,750 --> 02:03:51,960
Ian should we give up on all of

3140
02:03:55,370 --> 02:03:53,760
certainty or should we say oh I like

3141
02:03:56,810 --> 02:03:55,380
so-and-so because it's more certain I

3142
02:04:00,109 --> 02:03:56,820
don't have the idea that I'll ever be

3143
02:04:03,109 --> 02:04:00,119
100 certain but this gives me more

3144
02:04:04,669 --> 02:04:03,119
groundedness more certainty when we call

3145
02:04:07,250 --> 02:04:04,679
anything certain we can only mean

3146
02:04:09,350 --> 02:04:07,260
certain up to a point there is no such

3147
02:04:11,629 --> 02:04:09,360
thing as total certainty

3148
02:04:15,649 --> 02:04:11,639
and in different areas certainty means

3149
02:04:17,930 --> 02:04:15,659
different kinds of things really so uh I

3150
02:04:20,390 --> 02:04:17,940
think I agree entirely with John that

3151
02:04:22,310 --> 02:04:20,400
giving up on the idea of 70 is hugely

3152
02:04:25,609 --> 02:04:22,320
important and it's the belief that

3153
02:04:28,970 --> 02:04:25,619
either science or Reason will lead us to

3154
02:04:31,250 --> 02:04:28,980
the same infallible conclusion all of us

3155
02:04:33,609 --> 02:04:31,260
um and will reveal the truth about

3156
02:04:37,970 --> 02:04:33,619
things is is

3157
02:04:40,850 --> 02:04:37,980
naive dangerous deluded

3158
02:04:43,729 --> 02:04:40,860
but not that we should honor science and

3159
02:04:46,550 --> 02:04:43,739
reason we should we should also honor

3160
02:04:49,850 --> 02:04:46,560
intuition and Imagination and you know

3161
02:04:53,930 --> 02:04:49,860
just perhaps to the last thing I shall

3162
02:04:57,109 --> 02:04:53,940
say the greatest myth for me is the myth

3163
02:05:00,169 --> 02:04:57,119
that is about myth which is the myth of

3164
02:05:01,330 --> 02:05:00,179
Orpheus and euridity so Orpheus was a

3165
02:05:06,109 --> 02:05:01,340
demigod

3166
02:05:08,810 --> 02:05:06,119
and uh he he could with his music Move

3167
02:05:10,250 --> 02:05:08,820
Stones he could move people obviously he

3168
02:05:12,050 --> 02:05:10,260
could even change the course of a river

3169
02:05:15,050 --> 02:05:12,060
so he had some magical power of his

3170
02:05:18,770 --> 02:05:15,060
music that nobody could resist and he

3171
02:05:20,570 --> 02:05:18,780
got married to a princess eurydice and

3172
02:05:22,250 --> 02:05:20,580
after the wedding eurydice with her

3173
02:05:24,470 --> 02:05:22,260
bridesmaids was walking in a meadow and

3174
02:05:26,030 --> 02:05:24,480
she was Bitten on the heel by a Viper

3175
02:05:28,910 --> 02:05:26,040
and she died

3176
02:05:32,750 --> 02:05:28,920
and orifice was completely

3177
02:05:35,270 --> 02:05:32,760
grief struck and he thought I'm going to

3178
02:05:36,649 --> 02:05:35,280
go down into the underworld and plead

3179
02:05:38,990 --> 02:05:36,659
for her

3180
02:05:41,330 --> 02:05:39,000
and something that nobody had ever been

3181
02:05:44,030 --> 02:05:41,340
able to succeed at doing or able to go

3182
02:05:46,729 --> 02:05:44,040
there at all never mind to succeed so he

3183
02:05:49,490 --> 02:05:46,739
went to the underworld and he played for

3184
02:05:53,330 --> 02:05:49,500
the gods of the underworld and they were

3185
02:05:55,550 --> 02:05:53,340
so moved that they said yes okay we will

3186
02:05:59,209 --> 02:05:55,560
give you back your bride on one

3187
02:06:01,490 --> 02:05:59,219
condition that you you walk out of the

3188
02:06:04,250 --> 02:06:01,500
underworld and you don't look back at

3189
02:06:07,970 --> 02:06:04,260
her until you are completely both clear

3190
02:06:10,129 --> 02:06:07,980
of the underworld and at the end of his

3191
02:06:11,570 --> 02:06:10,139
journey out he couldn't resist

3192
02:06:14,830 --> 02:06:11,580
taking

3193
02:06:17,450 --> 02:06:14,840
a look at his loved one and he was over

3194
02:06:18,950 --> 02:06:17,460
overwhelmed he reached towards her and

3195
02:06:20,629 --> 02:06:18,960
she shrunk away

3196
02:06:23,450 --> 02:06:20,639
back into the underworld never to be

3197
02:06:26,689 --> 02:06:23,460
seen again now what that seems to me to

3198
02:06:29,209 --> 02:06:26,699
be about is the power of the not looked

3199
02:06:30,410 --> 02:06:29,219
at the implicit the thing that has to

3200
02:06:33,589 --> 02:06:30,420
remain

3201
02:06:36,290 --> 02:06:33,599
outside our diminishing Consciousness

3202
02:06:38,390 --> 02:06:36,300
our world of words because it simply is

3203
02:06:42,109 --> 02:06:38,400
too great for it and can only be

3204
02:06:44,510 --> 02:06:42,119
conveyed through imagination in myths

3205
02:06:47,450 --> 02:06:44,520
imagination in

3206
02:06:49,729 --> 02:06:47,460
a religious Faith or a spiritual realm

3207
02:06:53,390 --> 02:06:51,649
well thank you all thank you all for

3208
02:06:55,129 --> 02:06:53,400
coming out I I think it's apt that you

3209
02:06:56,930 --> 02:06:55,139
said this may be the last thing I say

3210
02:06:58,370 --> 02:06:56,940
and then talk about how speaking itself

3211
02:07:01,790 --> 02:06:58,380
is besmirching whatever you're talking

3212
02:07:02,709 --> 02:07:01,800
about yes exactly that's been the

3213
02:07:05,149 --> 02:07:02,719
problem

3214
02:07:07,250 --> 02:07:05,159
yeah yeah many times I have these

3215
02:07:09,050 --> 02:07:07,260
intimations when I do this podcast and I

3216
02:07:10,970 --> 02:07:09,060
study these different theories I have

3217
02:07:13,850 --> 02:07:10,980
these intimations that what I'm doing is

3218
02:07:15,470 --> 02:07:13,860
a sin in a sense sin is maybe an

3219
02:07:17,570 --> 02:07:15,480
incorrect word but it's not progressing

3220
02:07:19,550 --> 02:07:17,580
forward it's progressing backward that

3221
02:07:22,850 --> 02:07:19,560
by explicating I'm performing and

3222
02:07:25,609 --> 02:07:22,860
undoing and I should just stop and

3223
02:07:27,770 --> 02:07:25,619
be a monk and go into the monastery and

3224
02:07:30,290 --> 02:07:27,780
just not speak because to speak of it

3225
02:07:32,810 --> 02:07:30,300
diminishes it one day we must talk about

3226
02:07:35,030 --> 02:07:32,820
that yeah yeah we could talk about that

3227
02:07:36,649 --> 02:07:35,040
yes right yeah let's talk about talking

3228
02:07:40,189 --> 02:07:36,659
exactly

3229
02:07:41,870 --> 02:07:40,199
John any last words and then we wrap

3230
02:07:43,910 --> 02:07:41,880
um

3231
02:07:45,649 --> 02:07:43,920
I gotta I got very excited at times

3232
02:07:49,250 --> 02:07:45,659
because

3233
02:07:50,570 --> 02:07:49,260
we've only spoken once before

3234
02:07:54,649 --> 02:07:50,580
um

3235
02:07:58,510 --> 02:07:54,659
finding a mind as deep

3236
02:08:02,149 --> 02:07:58,520
and the heart is deep and sharp

3237
02:08:05,410 --> 02:08:02,159
insightful as he had after writing a

3238
02:08:07,669 --> 02:08:05,420
truly impressive work

3239
02:08:09,470 --> 02:08:07,679
often converging

3240
02:08:11,390 --> 02:08:09,480
and this is in no way trying to take any

3241
02:08:13,370 --> 02:08:11,400
credit away from you but finding it

3242
02:08:17,570 --> 02:08:13,380
often converging with why work

3243
02:08:19,310 --> 02:08:17,580
I find deeply encouraging

3244
02:08:21,350 --> 02:08:19,320
um independent lines of research are

3245
02:08:22,910 --> 02:08:21,360
valued in science because the chances

3246
02:08:25,790 --> 02:08:22,920
that they have been produced by bias

3247
02:08:28,070 --> 02:08:25,800
independent lines that converge

3248
02:08:30,649 --> 02:08:28,080
the chance that they're producer of bias

3249
02:08:32,209 --> 02:08:30,659
is reduced by that very convergence and

3250
02:08:34,609 --> 02:08:32,219
the fact that he coming from something

3251
02:08:36,109 --> 02:08:34,619
they're very different and we often

3252
02:08:37,250 --> 02:08:36,119
found ourselves in very significant

3253
02:08:39,350 --> 02:08:37,260
agreement I hope it was still

3254
02:08:41,510 --> 02:08:39,360
entertaining for people watching but for

3255
02:08:43,189 --> 02:08:41,520
me I just wanted to express the

3256
02:08:45,830 --> 02:08:43,199
Gratitude and if I got over enthusiastic

3257
02:08:48,649 --> 02:08:45,840
at some points I apologize but I was

3258
02:08:51,109 --> 02:08:48,659
I've just I find it deeply encouraging

3259
02:08:53,990 --> 02:08:51,119
and I mean that we're very like that

3260
02:08:56,450 --> 02:08:54,000
almost literally very encouraging uh

3261
02:08:59,390 --> 02:08:56,460
that's that this kind of convergence has

3262
02:09:02,629 --> 02:08:59,400
occurred because for me it raises the

3263
02:09:04,490 --> 02:09:02,639
plausibility of my own work and also

3264
02:09:06,410 --> 02:09:04,500
helps me of course uh deeply appreciate

3265
02:09:10,250 --> 02:09:06,420
the answer but I wanted to thank you

3266
02:09:11,870 --> 02:09:10,260
for that because that I mean it I I take

3267
02:09:14,209 --> 02:09:11,880
it everything you would we're doing here

3268
02:09:17,149 --> 02:09:14,219
was sincere and authentic as a as I

3269
02:09:19,189 --> 02:09:17,159
tried to be yeah so for me for me it's

3270
02:09:21,790 --> 02:09:19,199
just it was it's it's powerful I find it

3271
02:09:24,410 --> 02:09:21,800
a very powerful experience

3272
02:09:27,410 --> 02:09:24,420
a true and I mean I hope this is not

3273
02:09:29,330 --> 02:09:27,420
meant in any way off but like a true

3274
02:09:31,129 --> 02:09:29,340
peer you know what I mean and playing

3275
02:09:32,290 --> 02:09:31,139
with the words we're peering at the same

3276
02:09:36,709 --> 02:09:32,300
thing

3277
02:09:38,990 --> 02:09:36,719
and and I just I I thank you thank you

3278
02:09:42,229 --> 02:09:39,000
very much well I can only respond in

3279
02:09:45,770 --> 02:09:42,239
kind uh John I feel the same thing it's

3280
02:09:47,870 --> 02:09:45,780
so rare to find mindset successfully in

3281
02:09:49,189 --> 02:09:47,880
in sync really

3282
02:09:50,930 --> 02:09:49,199
um we found things that we could

3283
02:09:53,270 --> 02:09:50,940
slightly gloss for one another but

3284
02:09:56,689 --> 02:09:53,280
effectively we're we're really talking

3285
02:09:59,390 --> 02:09:56,699
about the same things and I I I have

3286
02:10:01,970 --> 02:09:59,400
only gratitude for your kindness and

3287
02:10:04,189 --> 02:10:01,980
your warmth and and and the feeling of

3288
02:10:10,030 --> 02:10:04,199
you know Fellowship so thank you very

3289
02:10:15,709 --> 02:10:12,950
I hope we talk again again I hope so too

3290
02:10:18,290 --> 02:10:15,719
all right then bye-bye thank you bye-bye

3291
02:10:20,209 --> 02:10:18,300
bye bye okay all right thank you thank

3292
02:10:22,010 --> 02:10:20,219
you for sticking around for two and a

3293
02:10:23,930 --> 02:10:22,020
half hours I appreciate that I hope that

3294
02:10:25,330 --> 02:10:23,940
it was enjoyable to you again there's

3295
02:10:27,050 --> 02:10:25,340
the website

3296
02:10:28,910 --> 02:10:27,060
theoriesofeverything.org that's a place

3297
02:10:30,410 --> 02:10:28,920
that you can go to support toe if you're

3298
02:10:31,910 --> 02:10:30,420
interested in that like I mentioned in

3299
02:10:34,490 --> 02:10:31,920
the intro there are several benefits you

3300
02:10:37,790 --> 02:10:34,500
get an ads free audio version you get

3301
02:10:40,250 --> 02:10:37,800
that sometimes 12 to 48 hours to a few

3302
02:10:41,930 --> 02:10:40,260
days prior to premiering on YouTube you

3303
02:10:43,729 --> 02:10:41,940
get discounts to the Live Events when we

3304
02:10:45,770 --> 02:10:43,739
finally do have them sometimes those

3305
02:10:47,870 --> 02:10:45,780
tickets may even be free so for instance

3306
02:10:49,850 --> 02:10:47,880
I'm looking into doing something with

3307
02:10:51,589 --> 02:10:49,860
John verakee and Ian mcgilchrist in

3308
02:10:53,629 --> 02:10:51,599
person this is all extremely tentative

3309
02:10:55,790 --> 02:10:53,639
right now but this is a plan to do in

3310
02:10:57,350 --> 02:10:55,800
the future Carl friston in London live

3311
02:10:59,330 --> 02:10:57,360
in front of an audience is another

3312
02:11:01,189 --> 02:10:59,340
example there will be exclusive merch

3313
02:11:02,870 --> 02:11:01,199
and so on there's quite a few benefits

3314
02:11:04,189 --> 02:11:02,880
you can text me if you like there's a

3315
02:11:06,709 --> 02:11:04,199
number at least we're testing that for

3316
02:11:08,870 --> 02:11:06,719
about one week or one month or so again

3317
02:11:10,609 --> 02:11:08,880
that's theories of everything.org thank

3318
02:11:12,530 --> 02:11:10,619
you all for watching it's great to see